Halifax Stadium Discussion

[newflyer]

Originally Posted by hfx_chris

Aim for 20-25k, expandable to 30. I think the stadium in Montreal that the Alouettes play out of is 20k, and I think they're expanding it to 25.

Honestly I doubt a stadium less than 25,000 seats would be viable as a CFL stadium. The only reason that Allouettes are able to survive in Molson stadium is they have high levels of corporate support and play one game a year in Olympic Stadium which holds in excess of 55,000 fans, which boosts that average seats sales for the year towards that 25,000 mark.

In a city much smaller than Montreal I don't think a local CFL team could expect the same levels of corporate support. The primary reliance on ticket sales would be what keeps the team profitable. I think if a team were to be viable in the short to mid-term it would require at least 27,000 capacity, which would at the very least allow it to benefit from those games which attract alot of fan interest. If the team were able to sell it out on a regular basis it would definatly create a profitable condition.

[Urban_Genius]

Originally Posted by Empire

I don't think Moncton is in the mix to host a CFL team. They are hosting one and possibly more CFL games over the next few years.

Well they are. I don't know if Moncton could support a team. Change that, Moncton cannot support a CFL team unless they draw from other people in the region. Good luck getting people to drive 3 hours for a CFL game and 3 hours back, especially for an expansion team.

Just google search and you'll find plenty of articles from local politicians. The CFL has also aknowledge the possibility of expanding there.

Of course serious market studies and potential ownership is key.

Anyways good day, I just thought I'd share some things I've heard...not trying to troll or anything.

[fenwick16]

Urban_Genius mentioned the Saputo Stadium in Montreal in the "CFL for the Maritimes" section. This has 13,034 seats and was built for $14.1 million Below is a photo of this stadium:


(source cms6204 in photobucket). I hope that this photo shows up. If not it is at http://media.photobucket.com/image/s...s6204/mon4.jpg

another:

(source dario.1983 in Flickr.com). This is at http://www.flickr.com/photos/46768118@N00/3684073905

I copied the second photo since it shows it as being all individual chairs with people sitting in the rain. I think this stadium would be perfect for Halifax except make the stand's incline angle steeper so that the partial roof covers more of the seats and more seats are closer to the field. And instead of having all seats have benches but have the partial roof covering all of the stand sections instead of just one. This is built for soccer which has sideline dimensions of 100 yards versus 150 for CFL football. The width is 60 yards for soccer versus 65 yards for the CFL. If built to CFL dimensions with benches a stadium with a similar number of rows of seats would have about 20,000 seats. Not quite enough for the CFL. How about a partially sunken bowl with a double tier of seats?

I would think that a stadium like this could be built with 30,000 bench style seats in the $40-$50 million dollar vicinity with a partial roof covering most of the stands.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Urban_Genius

Well they are. I don't know if Moncton could support a team. Change that, Moncton cannot support a CFL team unless they draw from other people in the region. Good luck getting people to drive 3 hours for a CFL game and 3 hours back, especially for an expansion team.

Just google search and you'll find plenty of articles from local politicians. The CFL has also aknowledge the possibility of expanding there.

Of course serious market studies and potential ownership is key.

Anyways good day, I just thought I'd share some things I've heard...not trying to troll or anything.

Whether Moncton can support a CFL team is very debatable. It's important to analyze markets as having unique features though. It's a mistake to assume that a Maritime population is the same as one in Alberta or Ontario. To do so, can lead to erroneous conclusions.

The Maritimes is, by far, the most rural region of the country, but also densely populated. It's characterized by small town after small town after small town, much like many US states. People in the Maritimes are used to traveling to the next town over, or further, on a regular basis.

The lack of large cities or pro sports also means that there's far less competition for the entertainment dollar. It explains why college sports has prospered here. Will people drive 3 hours to see an expansion CFL team, then 3 hours home? Maritimers are far more inclined to do something like that than almost any other population in the country.

A CFL team in Moncton or Halifax would be a very very big deal down there. I remember when Halifax got the Windjammers basketball team. The media coverage was insane, and the first game a sell out. That Halifax team led the league in attendance and only folded because the league folded. Many of the players came from NCAA Division 1 and commented that those Halifax crowds rivaled the best college crowds they'd played before in the United States.

The Maritimes has a very deep sporting culture, but people in the rest of Canada are largely oblivious to it. It goes unrecognized in the rest of Canada because there aren't any pro teams down there. The Maritimes have never been given a chance because of their small population base, and small corporate base. Sporting culture has never been the problem.

Saskatchewan proves that a team can prosper in an area with a small population base if the sporting culture is strong. The Maritimes is another Saskatchewan just waiting to happen. If Moncton or Halifax land a team, within a few years the league office will be kicking themselves for not going there sooner. I wouldn't be shocked if a Maritime team led the Eastern conference in attendance within 5 years.

[reddog794]

Originally Posted by hfx_chris

I don't think the players would appreciate playing in the middle of an active aerodrome with Sea Kings landing and taking off.

I think I addressed the point of it being government owned land, but that is a very good point. Pity the ref calling a good kick.

I'm sorry I hadn't briefed myself on the DNDs plans before I mentioned it.

Then how about the marshaling yards? Two glossy additions to the Dartmouth waterfront would definitely drive the rents in DT Hali higher.

I'm trying to come up with stadium locations that would not require new roads to be built.

IMO, The best spot for a stadium in the city is where Piercey's/Tim's/Esso is.

[isaidso]

What do you think about Bayers Lake Industrial Park? It's right next to a major highway with great road connections in all directions. There's lots of land, and it's not in the middle of nowhere like Exhibition Park. You could build a great stadium behind KENT Building Supplies.

I got the idea for that area after visiting the new Mainland North Common. It's close by and they've done a great job turning that whole area into a sports lovers paradise. Soccer fields, football fields, baseball diamond, and a new indoor swimming facility on the way.

Actually, what about building a stadium next to those soccer fields? A stadium there would have great views down to the Bedford Basin from the upper rows.

Mainland North Common

http://i8.piczo.com/view/3/s/w/g/1/y...82_24541_4.jpg

Lots of land and still close by! Mainland North Common is also in this shot: just visible in the upper left.

http://www.sandyhines.com/bayerair.jpg

[fenwick16]

(source aaronsc at Flickr.com)

This is the Saputo Stadium in Montreal built for $14.1 million dollars. If this was build to CFL field dimensions instead of soccer then the capacity would be about 33% larger (about 17,500 instead of 13,034 at Saputo). This is based on the perimeter of a CFL field being 430 yards (150 + 150 + 65 + 65) versus 320 yards for soccer (100 + 100 + 60 + 60). If the individual chairs were replace with bench style seating then that would increase capacity by about 5% - 10% so it would be about 19,000. I would estimate the price to be $20 million - $25 million. But I think that the roof should be over all of the seats instead of just one section. Or at least make it over the two sideline seating sections. However I think that the capacity would have to be increased to about 30,000. I don't know how much that would add to the cost. How about a double tier of seats along the sidelines with the upper tier cantilevered to provide a roof for the lower level and then have a roof for the upper level (this might greatly increase the cost since the design would become more complex). Maybe the end zones could be left open for temporary seats in the event of a Grey Cup being played. So have 30,000 seats on the 2 sidelines.

What interests me about this stadium is that it was built at a low price but still has a roof over a section of stands.

[MonctonRad]

The style is very similar to the Stade Moncton 2010 Stadium (sans roof), also built for a low cost ($17M). I would argue that if Halifax were to build a stadium, it should look at a design like this too.

Also, as an ex-Halifax resident, if I could add my two-cents re: the location for a new stadium in the metro area...........ideally it should be in the south end close to Dalhousie and Saint Mary's. This would maximize utilization of the facility by making it convenient for university teams. It would also be within walking distance of at least some of the downtown hotels. The field (Gorsebrook I think?) on South Street behind the IWK would be ideal. Alternatively, if the stadium were to be built in the 'burbs instead, I would suggest the Dartmouth Crossing area........good road connections, nearby family and sports type restaurants and free land for adjacent development.

I hope Halifax does build a new stadium too. I know that Halifax could support a CFL team. I believe however that Moncton can too, and our natural catchment areas do not overlap too much.

I know most of you Haligonians think that us uppity Monctonians are way out of our depth here but in my ideal CFL, there would be 16 teams with two teams from the Maritimes.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The style is very similar to the Stade Moncton 2010 Stadium (sans roof), also built for a low cost ($17M). I would argue that if Halifax were to build a stadium, it should look at a design like this too.

Also, as an ex-Halifax resident, if I could add my two-cents re: the location for a new stadium in the metro area...........ideally it should be in the south end close to Dalhousie and Saint Mary's. This would maximize utilization of the facility by making it convenient for university teams. It would also be within walking distance of at least some of the downtown hotels. The field (Gorsebrook I think?) on South Street behind the IWK would be ideal. Alternatively, if the stadium were to be built in the 'burbs instead, I would suggest the Dartmouth Crossing area........good road connections, nearby family and sports type restaurants and free land for adjacent development.

I hope Halifax does build a new stadium too. I know that Halifax could support a CFL team. I believe however that Moncton can too, and our natural catchment areas do not overlap too much.

I know most of you Haligonians think that us uppity Monctonians are way out of our depth here but in my ideal CFL, there would be 16 teams with two teams from the Maritimes.

I like to believe that both Nova Scotia and New Brunswick/PEI (combined) could support two teams. I like the Stade Moncton 2010 Stadium except preferably with a roof over each stand section and more permanent seats.

The SMU stadium is a good location for university football since it is on the SMU campus (obviously) and close to Dalhousie also. However, the highway access is poor which makes it less than ideal for the CFL. This is a problem for trucking companies using the South End container terminal. Dartmouth Crossings is a good location because of the good highway access and most likely less opposition from neighbours than the South End Halifax location.

[fenwick16]

Looking at Bing maps, in bird's eye view, it looks like the area north of Wright Avenue between Countryview Drive and Lakeview Drive is already partially excavated (maybe this is where the quarry was located). Is this land already allocated to some development. If not, it could become the beginning of an excavated stadium. There is parking in nearby Dartmouth Crossings.

[q12]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Looking at Bing maps, in bird's eye view, it looks like the area north of Wright Avenue between Countryview Drive and Lakeview Drive is already partially excavated (maybe this is where the quarry was located). Is this land already allocated to some development. If not, it could become the beginning of an excavated stadium. There is parking in nearby Dartmouth Crossings.

Yeah that area might work and help to keep costs down. I think Dartmouth Crossing developers wanted to turn some of that area into residential, however if you built a stadium right next to their retail area I'm sure that would be a benefit for DC. It would be like Scotiabank Place up in Ottawa which is located outside in Kanata near a retail development.

http://www.bing.com/maps/default.asp...4938&encType=1

[fenwick16]

Thanks for the link to the map. This is the exact location that I was thinking of. I found the following information on the Dartmouth Crossings rezoning request for the adjacent property: http://www.halifax.ca/planning/docum...ctSheetPIM.pdf. According to this information they did not include this site in the residential plans.

The Dartmouth Crossings website; http://www.dartmouthcrossing.com/abo...dex.cfm/id/767 ; states that the rezoned area is atop of the quarry wall: "The re-zoned land is located at the north end of Dartmouth Crossing atop the quarry wall, sloping down to Hwy 118 and Lake Charles."

From the Bing maps it looks like the old quarry area is about 200 meters by 300 meters. Which would be just about what would be needed for a stadium. Would some Skyscraperpage forum-er be interested in emailing Dartmouth Crossing and ask them what the plans are for this area? Maybe they could propose it to HRM council and if Dartmouth Crossings owns it then offer it to HRM at a good price for use as a stadium. I know this all sounds far-fetched but it is worth a try. I am not currently living in the Halifax area, otherwise I would do it myself.

[fenwick16]

This Akron, Ohio Stadium (Summa Field at InfoCision Stadium http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summa_F...Cision_Stadium ) would fit onto this site:



This was built for $60 million. Interestingly, it appears to be surrounding by residential buildings also.

[q12]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

This Akron, Ohio Stadium (Summa Field at InfoCision Stadium http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summa_F...Cision_Stadium ) would fit onto this site:



This was built for $60 million. Interestingly, it appears to be surrounding by residential buildings also.

This stadium could probably be constructed even cheaper without the expensive looking media tower and sky boxes and possibly different building materials (no brick on backside).



I noticed this appears to have bench seating which helps with the costs, and the stadiums actually capacity is 27,000 plus 3,000 temporarily on the end zone grassy hill for students of the university.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by q12

Yeah that area might work and help to keep costs down. I think Dartmouth Crossing developers wanted to turn some of that area into residential, however if you built a stadium right next to their retail area I'm sure that would be a benefit for DC. It would be like Scotiabank Place up in Ottawa which is located outside in Kanata near a retail development.

http://www.bing.com/maps/default.asp...4938&encType=1

Perhaps the developers at DC would be interested in modifing their residential plans for DC north? (the Quarry). If a condo development were to incorporate a stadium then costs could be reduced dramitically for the stadium superstructure. Perhaps HRM could help by allowing more height for the Stadium Suites Condos so it would be even more feasible. These suites would not be for everyone but I think they would have great market appeal for a specific segment. There could be additional parking under the field and of course across the field ffrom the residential component would be the Stadium Suites Hotel.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by q12

This stadium could probably be constructed even cheaper without the expensive looking media tower and sky boxes and possibly different building materials (no brick on backside).

I noticed this appears to have bench seating which helps with the costs, and the stadiums actually capacity is 27,000 plus 3,000 temporarily on the end zone grassy hill for students of the university.

I think that the media tower could be removed and the exterior could be precast concrete. It should be noted that this stadium is designed for American football which has a shorter field and shorter end zones than Canadian football (total length is 120 yards for American football versus 150 yards for Canadian football). So a similar stadium that stretches along both sidelines would have a capacity of 27,000 x 150/120 = 33,750 for Canadian football. Also the end zones would be wider (65 yards versus 53.3 yards, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compari...rican_football ) which would allow for more temporary seating.

I would suggest reducing the number of rows of seating so that the stadium would have 30,000 (instead of 33,750) bench style seats along the two sidelines with the end zones open. (Bench style seating provides higher capacity, lower stadium cost and lower maintenance cost than chair style seating). But put part of the money saved on the media tower and exterior brick towards having roofs over the stands like the Saputo Stadium in Montreal (the roof couldn't have been too expensive since the entire stadium was built was $14 million). I estimate that it could be built for $50 million.

I believe that a stadium would likely generate some revenue from naming rights since it would be the largest in the Maritimes which has over 1.8 million people in NS, NB and PEI (this is not including Newfoundland).

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

I believe that a stadium would likely generate some revenue from naming rights since it would be the largest in the Maritimes which has over 1.8 million people in NS, NB and PEI (this is not including Newfoundland).

They had better not call it Molson Stadium since the Molson brewery is here in Moncton!!

Also, I'm sick and tired of everthing sports related in Halifax being associated with Moosehead beer. Something more innovative might be in order here...

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Empire

Perhaps the developers at DC would be interested in modifing their residential plans for DC north? (the Quarry). If a condo development were to incorporate a stadium then costs could be reduced dramitically for the stadium superstructure. Perhaps HRM could help by allowing more height for the Stadium Suites Condos so it would be even more feasible. These suites would not be for everyone but I think they would have great market appeal for a specific segment. There could be additional parking under the field and of course across the field ffrom the residential component would be the Stadium Suites Hotel.

This is an interesting photo except if the stands are going to be covered then the condo apartments would have to be at the end zones.

I imagine a roof over the entire seating area with roof support columns between the first and second tier of seating; just keep them to a minimum. This would mean a few obstructed seats but a few obstructed seats is a small price to pay for comfort on a rainy day. I think that the roof might have to be heated during the winter to melt snow (I have heard of this being done in another stadium). If the snow load is kept to a minimum then the superstructure for the roof can be built lighter and less expensively. The concourse would be between the first and second tier of seating similar in design to the Halifax Metro Centre. This would be necessary since the first tier would be the retaining wall for the excavated quarry. I will try to do a diagram.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

This is an interesting photo except if the stands are going to be covered then the condo apartments would have to be at the end zones.

I imagine a roof over the entire seating area with roof support columns between the first and second tier of seating; just keep them to a minimum. This would mean a few obstructed seats but a few obstructed seats is a small price to pay for comfort on a rainy day. I think that the roof might have to be heated during the winter to melt snow (I have heard of this being done in another stadium). If the snow load is kept to a minimum then the superstructure for the roof can be built lighter and less expensively. The concourse would be between the first and second tier of seating similar in design to the Halifax Metro Centre. This would be necessary since the first tier would be the retaining wall for the excavated quarry. I will try to do a diagram.

One of the advantages of having a residential building behind the stands would be the infrastructure it could provide. It would be an anchor point for the seating structure plus at the lower level perhaps a food court or ticket office could be incorporated.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Empire

One of the advantages of having a residential building behind the stands would be the infrastructure it could provide. It would be an anchor point for the seating structure plus at the lower level perhaps a food court or ticket office could be incorporated.

I can see your point but being a home owner I would worry about the stadium portion becoming obsolete within 40-50 years whereas the buyers of a condominium would want the value to continue to escalate and would hope that the condo portion would be around for much longer. I think that there are people who would buy a condo with a view of the stadium field but would likely want it to be detached from the stadium structure.