Ottawa LRT - Citadis Spirits (General Discussion)

[TheMatth69]

So I thought it would be a good idea if we made a thread about the trains themselves. It would make the Confederation Line thread more readable and less charged.

As you must already know, Citadis Spirits are the North American adaptation of the world famous Citadis line of trams/LRV that operates around the world. I found it interesting if we take a look a the issues those trams/LRVs faced in their recent history and try to see if we can find somekind of correlation between incidents and breakdowns:

Classic Citadis (class 100 to 400):





Years of service: 2001 to now
Major cities where it operates: Paris, Sydney, Dubai, Alger, Tunis, Casablanca, Rio De Janeiro, Brasilia, Shanghai, Jerusalem, Istanbul, Melbourne, Dublin, Moscow, Lyon, Toulouse, Strasbourg, St Petersburg.
Coldest City where it operates : St-Petersburg, Moscow, Grenoble (not very cold but very snowy).
Power supply options : Catenary (600v DC or 750v DC), Central third rail, Battery
Max operating Speed : 80km/h
Systems where its operated similarly to Ottawa: Rouen, Strasbourg (Underground portion)
Major Breakdowns, issues and faults:
Strasbourg - Several cases of bolts coming of the Boogie of the trains and triggering the emergency brake system making the train not operational. Similar cases happened in some cities.
- Bordeaux - Bordeaux was the first city to use the Central third rail technology. At the beginning of operations water accumulation over the rail would cause trains to loose power and stall or operate a very slow speeds.
Other minor incidents happen once in a while. The biggest factor of breakdowns for these trains are actually car crashes.
On a side note Citadis Trains are known in Europe for their saggy suspensions and vibrations when the train picks up speed. Issue that was apparently resolved with the new generation of Citadis.

New Generation Citadis (class X05 - or 500):



Years in service: 2016 to now
Major Cities where it operates : Nice, Dublin, Sydney, Athens, Paris, Lyon
Coldest City where it Operates : Lyon, Dublin
Power supply options : Catenary (750v DC), Central third rail, Rechargeable battery system (SRS - Static Recharge System)
Max Operating Speed: 70km/h
System where its operated similarly to Ottawa : Nice (underground section)
Major Breakdowns, issues and faults:
Nice - The SRS system that recharges the batteries of the train isn't perfect. Since the train has the relie on battery power between stations, the power output os limited making train run much more slowly (40km/h MAX). If the train can't make it to the station in time the system will automatically lunch into energy saving mode making the train crowl at very minimal speed to the next station.

Regio Citadis LRVs: These trains use the same door and window layout to our Spirits





Years in Service : 2005 to now
Major Cities where it operates : The Hague, Cassel, Frankfurt
Coldest City where it operates : Cassel
Power supply options: Catenary (750v DC), Diesel Hybrid options (Cassel)
Max operating Speed : 100km/h
Systems where It's operated similarly to Ottawa : The Hague (operated like a metro), Cassel (operated like a regional rail)
Major Breakdowns issues and faults : Negligible.

Citadis Dualis LRVs: (These where the trains that Ottawa was supposed to get before Alstom came with the Spirits line of LRVs)





Years in service : 2013 to now
Major cities where it's operated : Lyon & Suburbs, Paris & Suburbs, Nantes & Suburbs
Coldest city where it operates: Lyon (can be pretty snowy in Winter)
Power supply options: bi-currant (1500v DC + 750v DC) or (25 000v AC + 750v DC) or Hybrid (Diesel + 750v DC)
Max operating speed : 100km/h
Systems where it's operated similarly to Ottawa: Paris (line T11 Express), most networks use it as a light commuter rail train.
Major breakdowns, issues or faults:
Lyon / Nantes - When entering in service trains had major breakdowns due to wheel blockage making the train stop brutally at any given moment. Trains where taken out of service for almost 6 months before coming back into service. No major breakdowns to be acknowledged about since.

Citadis Spirit LRVs : Ours



Years in Service : 2019 to now
Major cities where it's operated : Ottawa, Toronto (GTA)
Power supply options : 750v DC or 1500v DC (Ottawa)
Max operating speed : 110km/h
Major Breakdowns, issues or faults :
Ottawa - Door issues - when pushed or forced open doors slitely derail from their purposed alignment tricking the train computer system to think the doors are not closed, making the train not operational due to no computer override system.
Ottawa - Train onboard CBTC computer crash - making the train not operational because blind to other trains. Also high difficulty to restart the computer system when crashed.
Ottawa - Electric inductors failure - making the train loose power especially in harsh winter weather and moist climate, trains have to be towed away when it happens.
Ottawa - Flat wheel problem - faults in the wheel and braking design making the wheels wear much faster than they should be.



*Note that we're the only network using the Citadis with CBTC/ATC. All the other networks using those trains are using Block signals, Road/Tram signals and GPS location systems.

[Harley613]

Great idea for a thread and thank you for all of your efforts on your opening post. It's an interesting read!

[TheMatth69]

Originally Posted by Harley613

Great idea for a thread and thank you for all of your efforts on your opening post. It's an interesting read!

Thank you !

Also wanted to add that the entire line of Citadis trains seems to all have problems with their drive train (boogie, wheels, brake).
However most of the issues we have in Ottawa seems to be unique to our system and trains. Pretty impressive when you know for example that the Regio Citadis uses the same door layout and configuration to our Citadis Spirits and we have door issues and they don't...

[J.OT13]

Great thread! And thanks for all the research!!

Someone mentioned that the Citadis trains have fixed bogies vs the Flexity's pivoting bogies which likely contributes to the Alstom model's bogie/brake/wheel flat issues. Considering the tight curves our system has in the east end, pivoting bogies should have been a requirement.

The high volume of passengers in Ottawa, which the Spirit's door layout does not seem to be designed for, is likely the main reason for the door faults. Compare the Spirit's 14 oddly spaced doors over 98 meters to Vancouver's (Mark III) 12 evenly spaced doors over 70 meters. The Mark III's door placement and interior layout is much more conducive to good passenger flow.

Hopefully when the time comes to order new trains for Stage 3, we put in much more thought into train design than we did for Stage 1 and 2. Even with low-floor, I'm sure a train company can come up with a better layout for both the door placement and the interior.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Someone mentioned that the Citadis trains have fixed bogies vs the Flexity's pivoting bogies (I Googled it and it checks out) which likely contributes to the Alstom model's bogie/brake/wheel flat issues. Considering the tight curves our system has in the east end, pivoting bogies should have been a requirement.

Isn't the opposite true? I was under the impression that the Citadis (or at least some variants of it) have pivoting bogies while the Flexity doesn't.

If the bogies freeze up then they may contribute to the issues, but otherwise they should be pivoting, and from my experience riding it back in the fall if you're at the very back of the train coming into Hurdman from Lees, it certainly feels as though you're being swung around the curve as though the bogie was pivoting.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

Isn't the opposite true? I was under the impression that the Citadis (or at least some variants of it) have pivoting bogies while the Flexity doesn't.

If the bogies freeze up then they may contribute to the issues, but otherwise they should be pivoting, and from my experience riding it back in the fall if you're at the very back of the train coming into Hurdman from Lees, it certainly feels as though you're being swung around the curve as though the bogie was pivoting.

I'm finding conflicting information online. I'm no longer sure sure which is which...

[TheMatth69]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I'm finding conflicting information online. I'm no longer sure sure which is which...

Depends what you mean by "bogies". Bogies are the entire structure (wheels + Frame + Break). So we most likely have pivoting bogies as otherwise trains wouldn't be able to turn. However some trains have slitely pivoting wheels to reduce the amount of work on the bogie. This helps to maintain better speed in curves and reduce friction between the wheels and the rail.

[Kitchissippi]

I sure hope they are actively modifying and improving the design of the Citadis Spirits as they move forward building the Stage 2 trainsets. Otherwise it would be stupid to continue with our order and Metrolinx's with all these issues. When they are resolved, our current ones should be recalled and corrected on Alstom's dime.

[Richard Eade]

Any ideas on why Ottawa's trains appear to be the only ones that have 'flairs' over the bogies? Do we have a narrower-bodied train, or wider trucks? Are our bogies unique to Ottawa (as the inductors are)?

[TheMatth69]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Any ideas on why Ottawa's trains appear to be the only ones that have 'flairs' over the bogies? Do we have a narrower-bodied train, or wider trucks? Are our bogies unique to Ottawa (as the inductors are)?

Our trains are actually 2,65m wide which is larger then Montreal's metro or Vancouver's SkyTrain. Citadis trains are all standard gauge but there's two options of width available : 2,45m and 2,65m.

[Richard Eade]

Thanks, TheMatth69.

The question in my question still stands as to why Ottawa’s LRVs appear to be the only ones which have ‘flares’ (or, out-ward bulges in the body panels) to cover the wheels. There are three explanations that I can think of, off-hand: The main body of our trains is narrower; The bogies of our trains are wider (i.e., the 2.65 metre ones you listed), while the bogies of all other trains pictured are narrower (i.e., the 2.45 metre ones); Or that the ‘Flares’ are just a cosmetic detail.

You did bring to mind another question, though: Is that 2.65 metre overall width measured on the outside, at the widest part of the body? This would be the normal way to measure, say, an automobile (ignoring side mirrors, of course). If it is the way our LRVs are measured, it would mean that the measurement is the outside extreme of one ‘Flare’ to the same on the other side; so, the final space inside our vehicle would be much less than implied.

[Richard Eade]

The walls of our LRVs always seem very cold to me. When I sit against them, I find that I get chilled. On buses, the walls seem to be heated and do not feel as if they are sucking the heat out of me (assuming that the heat on the bus is working, of course). This might be an example of our trains not being properly designed for our weather.

How are the LRVs heated? Yes, I know that the heat is generated electrically, but is it radiant heating or forced air, for example? Where are the heated-air ducts, if it is forced air?

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

How are the LRVs heated? Yes, I know that the heat is generated electrically, but is it radiant heating or forced air, for example? Where are the heated-air ducts, if it is forced air?

The climate control units are on the roof, so the vents are probably on the ceiling.

There is also radiant heating in the floors; they do feel slightly warm to the touch if the system is turned on.

[sseguin]

Originally Posted by TheMatth69

Our trains are actually 2,65m wide which is larger then Montreal's metro or Vancouver's SkyTrain. Citadis trains are all standard gauge but there's two options of width available : 2,45m and 2,65m.

Do you know how wide the Toronto Rocket Subways are for comparison?

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by sseguin

Do you know how wide the Toronto Rocket Subways are for comparison?

3.14 m

[TheMatth69]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Thanks, TheMatth69.

The question in my question still stands as to why Ottawa’s LRVs appear to be the only ones which have ‘flares’ (or, out-ward bulges in the body panels) to cover the wheels. There are three explanations that I can think of, off-hand: The main body of our trains is narrower; The bogies of our trains are wider (i.e., the 2.65 metre ones you listed), while the bogies of all other trains pictured are narrower (i.e., the 2.45 metre ones); Or that the ‘Flares’ are just a cosmetic detail.

You did bring to mind another question, though: Is that 2.65 metre overall width measured on the outside, at the widest part of the body? This would be the normal way to measure, say, an automobile (ignoring side mirrors, of course). If it is the way our LRVs are measured, it would mean that the measurement is the outside extreme of one ‘Flare’ to the same on the other side; so, the final space inside our vehicle would be much less than implied.

The "Flares" are just empty space out of the vehicles that covers to bogies. It's basically a cover of the wheels and also a space to allow the bogies to rotate when the train turns. When the train turns (especially on sharp turns) the bogies stick out on the sides of the train.
Also our trains are made to handle higher speeds than most Citadis trains so I suspect that the breaking and power train of the LRVs are bigger and more heavily built than ofher models.

Also the width of the trains is measured from outside wall to outside wall.

[J.OT13]

Delete: Wrong thread.

[TransitZilla]

This is an awesome thread, TheMatth69!

One minor quibble (emphasis added):

Originally Posted by TheMatth69

Ottawa - Door issues - when pushed or forced open doors slitely derail from their purposed alignment tricking the train computer system to think the doors are not closed, making the train not operational due to no computer override system.

There is a door override as evidenced yesterday. The trains that had door issues needed to be evacuated, but the trains were able to be moved to a terminus station or the yard to allow service to continue.

Last night seemed to be the most impacting door issues in some time (though nowhere nearly as impacting as those the week of October 6- the delay was about 20 minutes according to Twitter.). I understand that some changes have been made and a software update is coming. I do wonder what is materially different about our doors compared to other Citadis, and is our software missing features that other cities have?

[TheMatth69]

The more we investigate the more we find issues with our Citadis Trains.
I can't really get why Alstom is having so many issues with this train, while most Citadis around the world work just fine.
Also is Alstom the only responsable for this ? Or is the RTM the one in cause ? Maybe the trains built in Toronto will be more reliable ... Time will tell.
What are your thoughts on this guys ?

[Richard Eade]

Can I presume that you are talking about the recently found cracks in the wheels? If so, it makes me feel bad for Mr. Manconi. He must be well beyond fed-up, but he has no option but to go on and try to straighten out this mess.

I do not know if they are related or not, but it would seem that the wheels have been developing ‘Flats’ more often than expected, and now there are three wheels (that we found) that have cracks. Something is odd. Is it a bad batch of wheels? Do the ‘routine’ minor derailments in the Yard contribute to the problems?

I think that we will have to wait for the official announcement of the ‘Root Cause’ of the cracks. Although, I am still holding my breath, waiting to hear what the ‘Root Cause’ of the wheel ‘Flats’ was/is.