Elgin Street Renewal

[TheGoods]

Originally Posted by gjhall

But tailoring the street design to provide parking, when someone like you says they don't come there because there's no parking doesn't make any sense!

Customers come by foot from the area, from their offices downtown, by taxi from hotels and from underground parking nearby - they're all walking and the sidewalks are simply insufficient.

You are right, they shouldn't be tailoring the street to me but they would be further alienating customers like me which still take their car and live in the suburbs, there are a lot of us that own cars and drive and spend their entertainment money at restaurants and bars. They will look at other areas to spend their money that has convenient parking such as Lansdowne and the Market.

I should rephrase my statement, I do go on Elgin but not like in the past, I have tried a few of the new places from Chef Matt Carmichael, Beckta and Common Eatery and know a few of the business owners and can they would not be happy if they did change the street to one lane.

[mykl]

Originally Posted by TheGoods

You are right, they shouldn't be tailoring the street to me but they would be further alienating customers like me which still take their car and live in the suburbs, there are a lot of us that own cars and drive and spend their entertainment money at restaurants and bars. They will look at other areas to spend their money that has convenient parking such as Lansdowne and the Market.

I should rephrase my statement, I do go on Elgin but not like in the past, I have tried a few of the new places from Chef Matt Carmichael, Beckta and Common Eatery and know a few of the business owners and can they would not be happy if they did change the street to one lane.

Actually, I'm quite sure hip restaurants like Common and the ones run by Carmichael would prefer a bike lane running right to them. I myself walk there. And thankfully in the near future, a suburbanite like yourself will be able to take the confederation line downtown and not worry about your car. Have an extra drink to warm up from your wintry walk, and throw a few extra dollars at the restaurants you claim to want to support

[gjhall]

Originally Posted by TheGoods

You are right, they shouldn't be tailoring the street to me but they would be further alienating customers like me which still take their car and live in the suburbs, there are a lot of us that own cars and drive and spend their entertainment money at restaurants and bars. They will look at other areas to spend their money that has convenient parking such as Lansdowne and the Market.

I should rephrase my statement, I do go on Elgin but not like in the past, I have tried a few of the new places from Chef Matt Carmichael, Beckta and Common Eatery and know a few of the business owners and can they would not be happy if they did change the street to one lane.

Except that, as you say, there aren't pay lots right next to the strip, and if you look at the ratio of parking spots on the street to licensed seats, they're really inconsequential to the businesses outside of deliveries, which can be accommodated in other ways.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by mykl

Actually, I'm quite sure hip restaurants like Common and the ones run by Carmichael would prefer a bike lane running right to them. I myself walk there. And thankfully in the near future, a suburbanite like yourself will be able to take the confederation line downtown and not worry about your car. Have an extra drink to warm up from your wintry walk, and throw a few extra dollars at the restaurants you claim to want to support

How many patrons of Common bike to the restaurant?

To me bike lanes are the worst possible use of Elgin (at least the commercial segment), particularly since there are many parallel cycling routes. Sidewalk/patio space enhances the atmosphere of the street, cycling lanes sit empty for 6 months of the year and take space from all other users of the street.

[TheGoods]

Originally Posted by mykl

Actually, I'm quite sure hip restaurants like Common and the ones run by Carmichael would prefer a bike lane running right to them. I myself walk there. And thankfully in the near future, a suburbanite like yourself will be able to take the confederation line downtown and not worry about your car. Have an extra drink to warm up from your wintry walk, and throw a few extra dollars at the restaurants you claim to want to support

I did not state that I want to support any of the establishments, all I stated was I have eaten there.

Not trying to be rude but I’m guessing that you are single and young or things have changed in the last 15 years, because I am wondering how do you take your date (girlfriend or wife) out, does she go with her own bike?
I’m in my early 40s with 2 kids and there is no way in hell that my wife will bike or take public transit if we are going out on a Saturday night especially when she is all dressed up. I think we are pretty well off, we have one date night per month, and usually go out once or twice a month in a large group setting and everyone in our group drives, we all live in the burbs and all of us drive. Yes, there are people that will bike as a form to commute but there are a lot of individual that drive. Do you think that if we live in the suburbs we do not go out?

As for drinking, I have an agreement with my wife that one of us can drink and the other will watch their alcohol intake and be the designated driver.
In addition, I really cannot see all females that are wearing hells and dressed up and taking their bikes, maybe I am missing something or frequent different establishments.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by mykl

Actually, I'm quite sure hip restaurants like Common and the ones run by Carmichael would prefer a bike lane running right to them. I myself walk there. And thankfully in the near future, a suburbanite like yourself will be able to take the confederation line downtown and not worry about your car. Have an extra drink to warm up from your wintry walk, and throw a few extra dollars at the restaurants you claim to want to support

It is going to be a real hike from the closest Confederation stop to the restaurants on Elgin.

[YOWflier]

TheGoods, you (and I for that matter) are on a demographic island when it comes to this web site. If you don't live in the central city, you're the devil. If you don't live in a condo, you're the devil. If you own one or more motorized vehicles, you're the devil. If you drive either/any of those motorized vehicles, you're the devil. If you don't walk, bike, or transit everywhere, you're the devil.

[TheGoods]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

TheGoods, you (and I for that matter) are on a demographic island when it comes to this web site. If you don't live in the central city, you're the devil. If you don't live in a condo, you're the devil. If you own one or more motorized vehicles, you're the devil. If you drive either/any of those motorized vehicles, you're the devil. If you don't walk, bike, or transit everywhere, you're the devil.

Thanks for the support, I felt like that they did not believe me (I am making this up) and since I drive a car in live in the suburbs, I don’t go out or frequent any of these establishments. It’s a good thing that I have other company with me in the Devil department, even if we are the minority.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by TheGoods

Thanks for the support, I felt like that they did not believe me (I am making this up) and since I drive a car in live in the suburbs, I don’t go out or frequent any of these establishments. It’s a good thing that I have other company with me in the Devil department, even if we are the minority.

I don't think you're the devil because you drive. I drive too sometimes. Other times I use transit or walk or bike.

But, you started out saying that you don't go to Elgin because there is no parking, and then said you opposed the plan to remove street parking on Elgin. If you don't go to Elgin, why do you care? That's where I have an issue- why are you trying to advocate for the retention of the status quo in a place you don't visit? Given that Elgin is a successful district, clearly other folks are figuring out a way to get there.

Most of the times I go to Elgin I drive too, but I support removing some street parking from Elgin for the following reasons:

1) There aren't that many spots on Elgin itself today anyway, so the majority of parking is already located on side streets and/or off-street lots.
2) The benefit to the street and the businesses from more patios, pedestrian traffic and street life outweighs the loss of a few parking spots.

[acottawa]

I understand that a large number of clients at many restaurants will be arriving by car, but on street parking on the commercial street itself makes little sense to me. If someone doesn't want to walk very far (because of footwear or mobility issues or whatever) there is a pretty low likelihood that one of the spots in front of the restaurant would be available and they will either have to drive up and down the street looking for a spot, or look for a lot/garage/side street anyway. But what the on street parking does do is make walking from where you do park a less pleasant experience, make it more difficult to be dropped off (in a cab, uber, or by your date), makes it less likely the snow will be cleared properly, slows down traffic (making it harder for drivers and transit riders to get where they want to be).

On a somewhat related topic, I am a little interested in how bicycle dating at expensive restaurants works. I lived car-free for many years in this city. It never occurred to me to suggest biking to a date.

[TheGoods]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I understand that a large number of clients at many restaurants will be arriving by car, but on street parking on the commercial street itself makes little sense to me. If someone doesn't want to walk very far (because of footwear or mobility issues or whatever) there is a pretty low likelihood that one of the spots in front of the restaurant would be available and they will either have to drive up and down the street looking for a spot, or look for a lot/garage/side street anyway. But what the on street parking does do is make walking from where you do park a less pleasant experience, make it more difficult to be dropped off (in a cab, uber, or by your date), makes it less likely the snow will be cleared properly, slows down traffic (making it harder for drivers and transit riders to get where they want to be).

On a somewhat related topic, I am a little interested in how bicycle dating at expensive restaurants works. I lived car-free for many years in this city. It never occurred to me to suggest biking to a date.

The issue is that there are no lots (exception of the museum of nature which I never taught of) and by taking away more on street parking on a commercial street and diverting it to a residential street, is that better? If I was a homeowner in the golden triangle, I would be happy with such a proposal unless they provided options like a new lot.

Mykl suggested that the owners of these establishments would prefer a bike lane to parking, I’m guessing he goes to these establishment on his bike and if he is going, is he going alone or with a date.

It made me think, why would an owner of a hip or high-end restaurant want a bike lane? Are they taking their dates on a bike and if so, how that works or even, if he did go out with the boys, is it very common now a day to be taking a bike to Common or Beckta. As I stated, I’m in my early 40s and unsure if people are actually taking their bikes when going out to a fine dining establishment or a hip cool lounge.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by TheGoods

The issue is that there are no lots (exception of the museum of nature which I never taught of) and by taking away more on street parking on a commercial street and diverting it to a residential street, is that better? If I was a homeowner in the golden triangle, I would be happy with such a proposal unless they provided options like a new lot.

I definitely think a residential street is better, first of all there are thousands of metres of side streets so it is much more likely people will find a spot, and secondly there isn't much through traffic, so parking cars aren't blocking the street (and holding up the buses and bicycles as well as cars). People have been parking on side streets to go to Elgin for decades, so I'm pretty sure golden triangle residents bought their houses knowing that was the case.

[Acajack]

Beyond the issue of Good vs. Evil, might the City of Ottawa not start to examine the possibility of putting up a parking garage (similar to those in the Market), somewhere in the vicinity of Elgin St.?

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by TheGoods

The issue is that there are no lots (exception of the museum of nature which I never taught of) and by taking away more on street parking on a commercial street and diverting it to a residential street, is that better? If I was a homeowner in the golden triangle, I would be happy with such a proposal unless they provided options like a new lot.

Mykl suggested that the owners of these establishments would prefer a bike lane to parking, I’m guessing he goes to these establishment on his bike and if he is going, is he going alone or with a date.

It made me think, why would an owner of a hip or high-end restaurant want a bike lane? Are they taking their dates on a bike and if so, how that works or even, if he did go out with the boys, is it very common now a day to be taking a bike to Common or Beckta. As I stated, I’m in my early 40s and unsure if people are actually taking their bikes when going out to a fine dining establishment or a hip cool lounge.

This all made me chuckle after I got slammed for supporting my dentist who commented in a newspaper article about the lack of bike riders frequenting his office on South Bank Street in Alta Vista.

I have to agree that placing fancy bike lanes on retail streets is not the best choice. Place them one block over on a parallel street. We should be focusing on moving pedestrians and transit on our retail streets. For bike riders, a one block diversion should not be a big deal. Retail streets are confusing enough not to be focusing our bike traffic there as well.

On Elgin Street itself, there are already all kinds of parking restrictions there, like one hour parking limits. As we promote intensification and remove parking, we better be thinking of alternatives to get people there. The Confederation Line is not enough and is too far away. We need to stop just thinking about the young, fit and able. What about the rest of the population?

[mykl]

I'm glad bradnixon and acottawa brought some sense to this place while I was at work. For starters, I don't ride a bike anywhere ever. But I've lived on Elgin for years, and I see the people going to the restaurants. I brought up bikes because these are hipster restaurants and common sense dictates that hipsters like bikes. Or walking. Or transit.

TheGoods, I suggest your wife buy a nice pair of high heeled fashion boots to help with the struggles of living in Canada and still wanting to impress. Her desire to wear unseasonable shoes to 3 or 4 dinners each winter doesn't mean Elgin street needs more parking. Especially when, as bradnixon has noted, you're not actually trying to frequent Elgin anyway.

Also, they do clear the bike lanes for winter use now. So that's 12 months of use per year.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Beyond the issue of Good vs. Evil, might the City of Ottawa not start to examine the possibility of putting up a parking garage (similar to those in the Market), somewhere in the vicinity of Elgin St.?

That's how I would go about it.

[caveat.doctor]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I have to agree that placing fancy bike lanes on retail streets is not the best choice. Place them one block over on a parallel street. We should be focusing on moving pedestrians and transit on our retail streets. For bike riders, a one block diversion should not be a big deal. Retail streets are confusing enough not to be focusing our bike traffic there as well.

This would be the best solution and works well in Vancouver, e.g. bike route isn't right on the Broadway main drag and conflicting with transit, but on the parallel streets W 7, 8 and 10 Av. http://vancouver.ca/files/cov/map-cycling-vancouver.pdf

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I have to agree that placing fancy bike lanes on retail streets is not the best choice. Place them one block over on a parallel street. We should be focusing on moving pedestrians and transit on our retail streets. For bike riders, a one block diversion should not be a big deal. Retail streets are confusing enough not to be focusing our bike traffic there as well.

Agreed. IMO, Elgin is already close enough to the O'Connor and Canal bikeways. A few more east-west connections, like an SBL along Somerset between O'Connor and the QED, for example, would suffice to connect Elgin into the cycling network.

If I were in charge, I would take the space allocated to the bike lanes and instead use it to build queue jump lanes for buses at each of the intersections. That combined with transit signal priority at each of these intersections would significantly speed up buses on Elgin and most importantly, it would allow buses to keep moving at a decent clip on Elgin even when there's heavy traffic.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

On Elgin Street itself, there are already all kinds of parking restrictions there, like one hour parking limits. As we promote intensification and remove parking, we better be thinking of alternatives to get people there. The Confederation Line is not enough and is too far away. We need to stop just thinking about the young, fit and able. What about the rest of the population?

I'm against parking on mainstreets (for the same reasons as acottawa). I think we should focusing on improved bus connections to the Confederation Line. Make Routes 5 and 14 come every ten minutes all day with alternating departures, then most of Elgin has 5-minute service to Rideau station. Combined with the transit priority measures I proposed, it would be a fast, convenient, and reliable connection to the rapid transit network allowing for easier mobility to the rest of the city.

And lastly, because some will drive no matter what, consider building a small underground parking garage in the area if parking is really that big of a concern.

[NOWINYOW]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

TheGoods, you (and I for that matter) are on a demographic island when it comes to this web site. If you don't live in the central city, you're the devil. If you don't live in a condo, you're the devil. If you own one or more motorized vehicles, you're the devil. If you drive either/any of those motorized vehicles, you're the devil. If you don't walk, bike, or transit everywhere, you're the devil.

Bravo!!!

[waterloowarrior]

There are 120 parking spots on Elgin (study area Laurier to QED) according to the consultation documents.

Best case scenario would be a partnership with the City, NCC (close to canal), and nature museum to convert the east museum lot to an underground garage, with the west lot being turned into a park as per the museum master plan. Would also create more parking for people going to Ottawa Police station.