Electric Vehicle Charging Stations in Ottawa-Gatineau

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

As far as I can tell from the map on the website (http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/veh...-ontario.shtml) none of the ONroute service stations have electric charging stations.

That seems like kind of an obvious oversight... it seems they would be the perfect place for these.

Agreed. However, it seems as if the government is working with partners who propose locations and the government approves them. It could be that ONroute hasn't requested charging stations for some reason. It seems as if IKEA have requested chargers at all of their stores. A company called KSI is installing them at a variety of McDonald's and Tim Horton's across the province.

Also of note, they are installing both Level 2 and Level 3 charging stations. The Fallowfield Park and Ride has two Level 2 chargers (probably with the assumption that people will be parking all day and don't need a rapid charge) but the Terry Fox Park and ride has one of each (probably because of its proximity to the Queensway and shipping will have people pulling over for a quick charge as well as all day parking).

[zzptichka]

Perhaps ONRoute is getting charging stations of their own.
The existing one at MEC is not listed there either.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Perhaps ONRoute is getting charging stations of their own.

I didn't see any mention of it on their website.

The existing one at MEC is not listed there either.

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't the chargers at MEC owned by and for the exclusive use of VRTUCAR?

[rocketphish]

Electric vehicle charging coming to 25 Ontario Canadian Tire Gas+ locations

The Canadian Press 12.05.2016

TORONTO - Electric vehicle charging stations are being added to 25 Canadian Tire Gas+ locations in Ontario, a first for the company.

AddEnergie Technologies says the stations, which start rolling out early next year, join the 2,500 stations along its FLO Canadian charging network.

Natural Resources Minister Jim Carr, who participated in Monday's announcement in Toronto, says the federal government will be contributing nearly half of the $1.8 million investment through a loan.

The funding is part of the government's commitment to provide $62.5 million for fast-charging stations for electric vehicles as well as natural gas and hydrogen refuelling stations along key transportation corridors.

The charging stations will be added to some of the province's busiest highways, particularly Highway 401, and accommodate all electric vehicles.

They will be equipped with direct-current fast chargers that can replenish 80 per cent of a vehicle's capacity in up to 30 minutes and dual Level 2 curbside chargers that take three to four hours.

The rapid charging costs $20 per hour, with per minute billing, while the standard charging costs $1.50 per hour.

Canada's FLO charging network currently includes 70 fast-charging stations. About 65 per cent of the network is located in Quebec, 20 per cent in B.C., 10 per cent in Ontario and five per cent in the Maritimes.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/busines...843/story.html

[1overcosc]

Charging by time is interesting.. I wonder if that will evolve to be the standard for electric car charging.

Given that a 300km charge can be made in 40 minutes, $20/hour for level 3 charging works out to about $4.45 per 100km. More expensive than what it would cost to charge at home but not ridiculously so. And still pretty cheap compared to gas.

[kwoldtimer]

This is something (one of the things!) I know nothing about, but isn't $1.50 per hour terribly cheap for tying up a commercial charging station for three or four hours?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Charging by time is interesting.

Agreed. It means you will continue to be billed for as long as you occupy the charger, even if it has finished charging. This provides incentive for the driver not to needlessly occupy a charging bay. Hopefully they will ticket or tow vehicles parked in the charging bay but not "using" the charger.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

This is something (one of the things!) I know nothing about, but isn't $1.50 per hour terribly cheap for tying up a commercial charging station for three or four hours?

They are probably assuming people will be plugged in all day (while at work) or overnight. So that would be $12 for 8 hours or $15 for 10 hours.

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Charging by time is interesting.. I wonder if that will evolve to be the standard for electric car charging.

Given that a 300km charge can be made in 40 minutes, $20/hour for level 3 charging works out to about $4.45 per 100km. More expensive than what it would cost to charge at home but not ridiculously so. And still pretty cheap compared to gas.

So, if I am driving a Prius C with a fuel consumption of 4.5 l/100km, there is no incentive to change to an electric car as long as gas stays somewhere near $1.00. The premium I would pay for an electric car would never be repaid. (Assuming that a lot of the charging was done at the $20/h charging cost.)

It would be an incentive for electric car manufacturers to reduce the charge time, since that would be something that people will be looking for to minimize the 'during-trip' charging cost. If the car makers reduce the charge time required, will the stations be upgraded to provide the hicher current, or will the stations throttle the current flow to maximize profit?

Really, the charge should be based on a combination of the charge delivered & the time in the bay. It is just like taxis which charge both for time (say, at a stop, or while you make up your mind on a destination) and distance travelled (for the wear-n-tear on the vehicle).

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

So, if I am driving a Prius C with a fuel consumption of 4.5 l/100km, there is no incentive to change to an electric car as long as gas stays somewhere near $1.00. The premium I would pay for an electric car would never be repaid. (Assuming that a lot of the charging was done at the $20/h charging cost.)

It is almost always cheaper to keep the car you own than replace it. Besides, as 1overcosc said, it is cheaper to charge at home (especially when charging overnight). I am curious how many people actually get 4.5 l/100km with their Prius C though.

If buying a car, a fully electric car should be cheaper to purchase than an equivalent hybrid, as you need the neither the complicated transmission nor the gasoline engine. You will need a higher capacity battery, but those are getting cheaper as the technology matures.

[lrt's friend]

For the average consumer, it is always wise to be a late adopter. Wait for the technology to mature and the prices to come down.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

For the average consumer, it is always wise to be a late adopter. Wait for the technology to mature and the prices to come down.

It is not clear that electric cars will ever take over. Electric cars have been about to take over a few times over the past 30 years. The common argument that the price of oil is never going back up and 20 years from now we will all be driving electric cars has some logical holes in it.

[1overcosc]

Electric cars will become the majority someday... my guess is in 15 years. They're cheaper to operate than gas cars (not only is charging cheaper than refueling, electric cars need far less servicing & maintenance) and the price gap to buy is constantly shrinking as batteries become cheaper to produce. By economics alone, even without subsidies, electric cars will be a superior option within a few years.

Charging at home overnight cost $1.77 per 100km in Ontario in 2013; probably more like $2 now.

As for the talk of EVs for 30 years.. the technology has never been market viable until now.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Electric cars will become the majority someday... my guess is in 15 years.

While I am not saying they won't succeed, it isn't a sure thing that they will either. The oil industry won't just roll over and die and have been very successful at blocking the electric cars so far (just look at the EV1 debacle).

They're cheaper to operate than gas cars (not only is charging cheaper than refueling, electric cars need far less servicing & maintenance) and the price gap to buy is constantly shrinking as batteries become cheaper to produce. By economics alone, even without subsidies, electric cars will be a superior option within a few years.

Don't under estimate the power of OPEC. They will keep the price of oil at a level to be competitive.

Currently electric cars make an excellent second vehicle. Soon they may become a good primary vehicle, but we may need people to change their mindset and behaviour. Currently people drive until the gauge tells them they need more gas. With electric cars you are better off charging whenever you aren't driving your car (or at least overnight). For now that means remembering to plug it in, though inductive charging could make the process automatic.

While there has been talk about the government sponsoring public charging stations, has there been any word about making it easier to install private charging stations? One change that would cost nothing is to change the building code to require new dwellings to have 240V circuit in the garage to facilitate installation of a charger? New apartments and condos should also be required to have at least some parking spaces with chargers.

[Horus]

Originally Posted by roger1818

While there has been talk about the government sponsoring public charging stations, has there been any word about making it easier to install private charging stations? One change that would cost nothing is to change the building code to require new dwellings to have 240V circuit in the garage to facilitate installation of a charger? New apartments and condos should also be required to have at least some parking spaces with chargers.

Quebec is already on it.
http://www.cantechletter.com/2016/04...rging-station/

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by roger1818

While I am not saying they won't succeed, it isn't a sure thing that they will either. The oil industry won't just roll over and die and have been very successful at blocking the electric cars so far (just look at the EV1 debacle).

Don't under estimate the power of OPEC. They will keep the price of oil at a level to be competitive.

I think the tide has turned to favour electric cars and the shift is inevitable. EV1 failed because battery technology was premature in the 1990s, while today innovation is being accelerated by advances in electronic devices like cellphones and tablets. The gains in efficiency for the combustion engine have plateaued and the costs for small incremental improvements are getting to a point of not being worth it. Meanwhile, electric cars are just at the beginning of a developmental curve but they're already just as good or better at acceleration and speed.

The other thing to watch for is how ITER and DEMO will spur the future of electric generation. If those projects are successful, we could see a new age of cheap and clean energy into the 2030s which will be quite transformational. Oil in the future may end up being primarily a source for chemicals.

[AndyMEng]

Originally Posted by roger1818

While I am not saying they won't succeed, it isn't a sure thing that they will either. The oil industry won't just roll over and die and have been very successful at blocking the electric cars so far (just look at the EV1 debacle).



Don't under estimate the power of OPEC. They will keep the price of oil at a level to be competitive.

Currently electric cars make an excellent second vehicle. Soon they may become a good primary vehicle, but we may need people to change their mindset and behaviour. Currently people drive until the gauge tells them they need more gas. With electric cars you are better off charging whenever you aren't driving your car (or at least overnight). For now that means remembering to plug it in, though inductive charging could make the process automatic.

While there has been talk about the government sponsoring public charging stations, has there been any word about making it easier to install private charging stations? One change that would cost nothing is to change the building code to require new dwellings to have 240V circuit in the garage to facilitate installation of a charger? New apartments and condos should also be required to have at least some parking spaces with chargers.

I literally can't wait for Tesla to finish their gigafactory to start delivering these vehicles en masse.

I wonder how many of the 500K car orders were from Canada? I'm assuming somewhere around 50-75K unit orders are from Canada. Once EV's are seen everywhere you go, and people prove that range anxiety isn't a thing, they'll become more popular.

I CAN'T WAIT to replace my 2006 Cobalt with my new Model III

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Electric cars will become the majority someday... my guess is in 15 years. They're cheaper to operate than gas cars (not only is charging cheaper than refueling, electric cars need far less servicing & maintenance) and the price gap to buy is constantly shrinking as batteries become cheaper to produce. By economics alone, even without subsidies, electric cars will be a superior option within a few years.

Charging at home overnight cost $1.77 per 100km in Ontario in 2013; probably more like $2 now.

As for the talk of EVs for 30 years.. the technology has never been market viable until now.

Hard to tell. Recharging is certainly an issue (yes they are falling, but a gas car can fully "charge" in a few minutes). Cost is a bigger one. A Chevrolet Bolt starts at $42k. A Cruze starts at $15k. That price difference is currently reduced somewhat by a government willing to pay $12,000 in subsidies but that is not in any way scale-able (there are 700k cars sold in ontario each year, to give each a $12,000 subsidy would cost $8.4B per year).

Will the price of electric cars fall by 64% in the next 15 years? Maybe, but a lot of the cost of electric vehicles are based on rare earth minerals like terbium, dysprosium, neodymium and of course lithium that are costly to extract and horribly destructive to the environment to extract (and therefore may become more rare or more costly if China improves its environmental laws).

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Hard to tell. Recharging is certainly an issue (yes they are falling, but a gas car can fully "charge" in a few minutes). Cost is a bigger one. A Chevrolet Bolt starts at $42k. A Cruze starts at $15k. That price difference is currently reduced somewhat by a government willing to pay $12,000 in subsidies but that is not in any way scale-able (there are 700k cars sold in ontario each year, to give each a $12,000 subsidy would cost $8.4B per year).

Will the price of electric cars fall by 64% in the next 15 years? Maybe, but a lot of the cost of electric vehicles are based on rare earth minerals like terbium, dysprosium, neodymium and of course lithium that are costly to extract and horribly destructive to the environment to extract (and therefore may become more rare or more costly if China improves its environmental laws).

Much of the price difference is sales volume. LED light bulbs were over $100 ten years ago (if you could find one) and back then they capped at 40W equivalent. Now they are under $5 before rebate. I suspect that within a couple years, LED bulbs will be cheaper than incandescent bulbs, possibly cheaper than they ever were, as it is likely the volume manufacturing cost will be less.

Now we aren't going to see that kind of price reduction with EVs, but the simpler design means that in volume, EVs have the potential to cost less than gasoline powered vehicles. Your point about rare earth minerals is well taken and it is uncertain what role that will play, but in the long run recycling could help out.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Much of the price difference is sales volume. LED light bulbs were over $100 ten years ago (if you could find one) and back then they capped at 40W equivalent. Now they are under $5 before rebate. I suspect that within a couple years, LED bulbs will be cheaper than incandescent bulbs, possibly cheaper than they ever were, as it is likely the volume manufacturing cost will be less.

Now we aren't going to see that kind of price reduction with EVs, but the simpler design means that in volume, EVs have the potential to cost less than gasoline powered vehicles. Your point about rare earth minerals is well taken and it is uncertain what role that will play, but in the long run recycling could help out.

I'm not sure LED bulbs are a good comparison for electric cars. LED bulbs contain hardly any material and bulb growth was helped by the fact that standard incandescent bulbs were banned in most jurisdictions and LEDs are vastly superior to the CFL alternatives. $10 LEDs are still many times more expensive than incandescent bulbs used to be (and more people are willing to pay many times more for a product that costs a few dollars than will pay many times more for a product that costs thousands of dollars). Even if prices come down, I can't imagine a scenario where a 500ish kg battery (full of rare earth metals) is comparable in cost to a hollow steel tank.