Kanata LRT EA - Bayshore to Palladium

[PHrenetic]

Originally Posted by CityTech

Holy sh*t. $1.14B just from Terry Fox to Hazeldean??? That has to have the least value for money of any possible rail project in this city.

By contrast, $710M from Moodie to Terry Fox is actually a bargain. That's pretty small potatoes in the grand scheme of things (pretty easy for each of the 3 governments to afford $240M each), and solves a lot of the transit problems in the area, as bradnixon pointed out. I'm on board.

But that further extension.. just forget about it. I don't think it will ever be worth it.

Good Day.
Agreed...short-term. Long-term...never say never.
But then, that is probably a main reason that they actually did piecewise price it, and stated in the EA TPAP that Moodie to TerryFox (with at least the first staged expanded LMSF after the initial LMSF) would be the first phase of the KLRT expansion with TerryFox as the interim terminus.
And then, we now have at least the EA TPAP on file for gradual reservation, acquisition, building, and purchasing for long-term expansion if and when (1) load factors finally demand it, and/or (2) favourable financing comes along with a need to be (sorry about using the phrase) shovel-ready.
(And, part of the higher price tag for the phases 2 and 3 of KLRT expansion has to be for the elevated structures specified. That seems a bit of wow to me.)
Overall, ... IE: works like this for me - KLRT phase 1 to TerryFox. Git 'er dun !

EnJoy!

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

Good Day.
Agreed...short-term. Long-term...never say never.
But then, that is probably a main reason that they actually did piecewise price it, and stated in the EA TPAP that Moodie to TerryFox (with at least the first staged expanded LMSF after the initial LMSF) would be the first phase of the KLRT expansion with TerryFox as the interim terminus.
And then, we now have at least the EA TPAP on file for gradual reservation, acquisition, building, and purchasing for long-term expansion if and when (1) load factors finally demand it, and/or (2) favourable financing comes along with a need to be (sorry about using the phrase) shovel-ready.
(And, part of the higher price tag for the phases 2 and 3 of KLRT expansion has to be for the elevated structures specified. That seems a bit of wow to me.)
Overall, ... IE: works like this for me - KLRT phase 1 to TerryFox. Git 'er dun !

EnJoy!

Always good to have plans ready, when funding becomes available. The biggest mistake we can make is not have any plans ready. That was the case when special Infrastructure funding became available during the last recession. I believe we only had the Pinecrest to Bayshore Transitway ready to go. Everything else was kinda of half-a**ed, which involved building half of projects or wasting money on things of little value.

[shawkr]

Can't the North-South problems be fixed in other ways? If so, then the western extension does basically nothing to improve intra-Kanata transit. It is a pure commuter line. Which isn't necessarily bad! The problem, as I see it, is that the proposed corridor has hardly any walkable origins or destinations.

Take the Centrum. This is a big box complex designed for Kanata-Stittsville residents to drive to (or bus to on intra-Kanata routes). The movie theatre might be its only actual draw for LRT passengers. Who is going to make the trek just to eat at Boston Pizza? re: "easy walking distance", I don't think we should describe any distance across giant parking lots as "easy".

The overpass-adjacent station is close to some high-rises. This is the only real source of pedestrian-to-train commuters along this corridor. But how many will there be? I imagine very few commute downtown for work. Else, why not choose a more central high-rise? And re: the overpass, I don't think an overpass over a six-lane highway to a Food Basics qualifies as an anchoring pedestrian link.

So this is what I see:
- one low-traffic pedestrian-access-only commuter station (around which there is admitedly some infill capacity)
- two high-traffic bus-and-park-n-ride-access-only commuter stations
- almost no destinations

Now, if this were the only possibly, then I would support it. Local buses connecting at either Terry Fox or Eagleson to LRT is much superior to local buses connecting at Moodie.

But I can't help but wonder if the better option isn't to:
1. send the LRT North from Eagleson along Marsh Road rather than west
2. all local buses can still connect to LRT, albeit at one station instead of two
3. but maybe the Terry Fox-Eagleson corridor can be used as BRT? so local routes from the western edges of Kanata and Stittsville have a more direct route to the connection.

Advantages:
1. Enable Kanata residents to access eastbound LRT via bus connections with similar ease.
2. Enable non-Kanata residents to access business park without a transfer, which for many people would be the second transfer of the commute.

Ultimately this is an empirical question. But I think there are good reasons to believe that public transit's modal share of the to-Kanata commute would be significantly higher if people could get on the LRT anywhere from Trim to Bayshore and know they will, in reliable and relatively speedy fashion, be dropped off ~5-10 min walk from their workplace. That (extra) transfer at Eagleson to a(nother) bus would discourage many.

[Richard Eade]

If new development corridors are going to become available through Kanata, then perhaps the LRT planning should be re-opened.

The northern routes had better predicted usage than the central option. However, the down-fall of the northern options, according to the consultants, was that, because the Terry Fox and Eagleson P&Rs still had to be serviced, there would need to be parallel bus service between Kanata and Moodie Station, along the 417. The ‘need’ to retain a large number of buses passing through the Greenbelt was the primary problem with the northern routes.

The next problem with the northern routes was that they were quite long, as they were drawn to follow the Urban Boundary (along Terry Fox Road). This meant that anyone going to the LRT from almost anywhere in Kanata would have to back-track first, if they planned to head east.

If there is a possibility of a new corridor where the golf course is, then maybe a northern route could follow the old rail corridor directly to Kanata North, and then turn down through the new corridor to go to Terry Fox Station. Eagleson P&R would be returned to the NCC in hopes of permission to use the old rail corridor running between Wesley Clover and the DND campus. There would be underpasses (culverts) of the tracks required. (The area north of that station might make a nice LMSF, too.)

Bus service within this part of Kanata would be revised to go to the more central Terry Fox Station.



Alternatively, just leave the main Confederation Line as a trunk line as planned, except end it at Terry Fox Station. Then create a Kanata Tram that runs, effectively north-south, to service Kanata and Stittsville residents. Because this is a tram, it would travel relatively slowly and, therefore, would not need to be fully grade separated. This tram would travel in a new transit corridor to provide new service for the residents of Kanata.

[shawkr]

The single best use for Kanata LRT is to get workers to the business park with minimal last mile fuss. So I think the ideal plan must to send the train north. Especially since most Ottawans have poor access to the LRT from their origins.

I think combining your two plans might be best. Send the LRT north through the corridor to March Road as in your first map. And build the pink tram line of your second map. The March Road station would act as the transfer station. Also, the pink tram or the red LRT should continue north along March Road all the way to Klondike, preferably in a grade-separated way. This would give superior intra-Kanata transit and improve last-mile connections for reverse commuters (especially relative to a bus connection at Eagleson).

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/ed...475409393&z=12

[OCCheetos]

The proposed Stage 3 alignment is now available on the O-Train fans system map here: https://map.otrainfans.ca/?stage3=tr...75.87644/-30.5

Barrhaven will be added if/when that study is complete.

For anyone who wants to visualize their own alignments, with a bit of knowhow you can fork the project and modify this file to add your own track data.

[OTownandDown]

At least all the stations west of Terry Fox are located in fields for the gigantic parking lots that will be required.

[Mikeed]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Alternatively, just leave the main Confederation Line as a trunk line as planned, except end it at Terry Fox Station. Then create a Kanata Tram that runs, effectively north-south, to service Kanata and Stittsville residents. Because this is a tram, it would travel relatively slowly and, therefore, would not need to be fully grade separated. This tram would travel in a new transit corridor to provide new service for the residents of Kanata.

I would argue this is what they should do, but instead of a tram it should be BRT as local feeder routes can use that infrastructure to go to the relevant hubs. Especially as it's easy to imagine how busses will evolve to autonomous and electric autos that will allow for shorter headways and longer service times.


Especially considering that the suburbs should be designed as self-contained cities.

[Truenorth00]

This is big hammer and small nail situation. Kanata and Stittsville don't need LRT running through them. They need lots of bus lanes and some exclusive ROW BRT to enable them feeding the LRT stations better. Hopefully, the planners' analysis eventually takes them in that direction. Keep the LRT along the 417. Stops at Eagleson, Terry Fox, Huntmar/CTC, Carp Rd. Run curbside bus lanes north-south to connect.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This is big hammer and small nail situation. Kanata and Stittsville don't need LRT running through them. They need lots of bus lanes and some exclusive ROW BRT to enable them feeding the LRT stations better.

I agree 100%!

Hopefully, the planners' analysis eventually takes them in that direction. Keep the LRT along the 417. Stops at Eagleson, Terry Fox, Huntmar/CTC, Carp Rd. Run curbside bus lanes north-south to connect.

I agree with you on Eagleson & Terry Fox.

I’m not convinced about the CTC. There are probably less than 100 events that would justify the capacity boost (compared to over 200 work days, plus high on other activities for downtown). On top of that the crush demand of the CTC is very short lived since its total capacity is less than 20,000 and most of those will continue to drive. As a result each event will have maybe 5 to 10 thousand transit users.

Now if the Sens agreed to develop most of their parking lots (either as residential or commercial) to create additional demand for the station (and reduce the number of people driving to the games) that would be different.

As for Carp Rd, I just don’t see the need to have the train go all the way to the edge of the urban transit area.

[lrt's friend]

Isn't the point of the southward turn in Kanata is to reach the former CPR ROW for eventual westward extension through Stittsville? This is designed to protect the corridor even if extension does not occur for 50 years. Continuing westward along Hwy 417 beyond CTC fails to serve future development nearly as well. LRT running along expressways is far from ideal and compromises TOD because it is a less desirable area for development. So much of the Confederation Line is already following expressways simply because it is the only reasonable choice in areas that were previously developed. We cannot build subways through mostly low density suburbs.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

So much of the Confederation Line is already following expressways simply because it is the only reasonable choice in areas that were previously developed. We cannot build subways through mostly low density suburbs.

Apparently we can, or at least some form of rail. Having spent 70 years subsidizing car-oriented suburban sprawl, we are about to embark on another 70 of subsidizing vaguely transit-adjacent sprawl, all the while starving transit service in the urban core.

[rakerman]

The final EA was in DropBox but those files are no longer available. I got official versions from the city and have made them available in the Internet Archive

https://archive.org/details/klrt-epr-final-rev-3

[roger1818]

From the Barrhaven LRT | Proposed thread.

Originally Posted by bradnixon

OT for this thread maybe, but stopping at Eagleson in Kanata would make no sense. A rapid transit link (either LRT or BRT) between Terry Fox and Eagleson is really essential for the local bus network in Kanata to be able to be effective.

I agree. Overall, Terry Fox makes a much better hub for buses and the incremental cost of extending the 2km from Eagleson to Terry Fox would be minimal as all of the grade separations have already been built (they just aren't being used).

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by roger1818

From the Barrhaven LRT | Proposed thread.

I agree. Overall, Terry Fox makes a much better hub for buses and the incremental cost of extending the 2km from Eagleson to Terry Fox would be minimal as all of the grade separations have already been built (they just aren't being used).

It would also serve the high density Kanata Lakes area.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

It would also serve the high density Kanata Lakes area.

I assume you are being facetious, as in general Kanata Lakes is low density. However, there is significant density being built north of the 417, between Kanata Ave, Campeau Dr and the hydro corridor as shown below. With a station at the pedestrian bridge, there are TOD opportunities south of the 417 as well.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I assume you are being facetious, as in general Kanata Lakes is low density. However, there is significant density being built north of the 417, between Kanata Ave, Campeau Dr and the hydro corridor as shown below. With a station at the pedestrian bridge, there are TOD opportunities south of the 417 as well.

That might change depending on what happens to the golf course...

I think a lot of those apartment buildings do brand themselves as being in Kanata Lakes, though.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

That might change depending on what happens to the golf course...

LOL. True.

I think a lot of those apartment buildings do brand themselves as being in Kanata Lakes, though.

That is why I said "in general" (though it isn't entirely clear as to if they technically are part of Kanata Lakes or not).

[JHikka]

Terry Fox makes sense as a terminus. Not much sense building to Palladium for a hockey team that will (eventually) be moving away from there anyway.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Terry Fox makes sense as a terminus. Not much sense building to Palladium for a hockey team that will (eventually) be moving away from there anyway.

Agreed! Even if the Sens don't ever move it still doesn't make sense. On average an NHL team plays about 48 home games in a season (41 regular season, 4 preseason and 3 postseason) but I'll round that up to 50. As for other events, in 2019 there were only 30 different events (though some spanned multiple days and a few had multiple per day). Even if we stretch that to 50 other events, that means there are under 100 events in a year, compared to the approximately 250 work days in a year.

On top of that, the capacity of the CTC is under 20,000, which is small compared to the number of people commuting downtown in a day and a much higher percentage of people going to an event will be carpooling than those commuting to work, so a higher percentage would end up driving anyway.