HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions


View Poll Results: Will Virginia one day not be considered southern?
Yes 25 38.46%
No 40 61.54%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #81  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2020, 6:17 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 4,242
Was West Virginia "less southern" than Virginia in 1988?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #82  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2020, 6:19 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is online now
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 23,564
West Virginia should probably be renamed "East Kentucky" at this point.
__________________
If a Pizza is baked in a forest, and no one is around to eat it, is it still delicious?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #83  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2020, 6:31 PM
pj3000's Avatar
pj3000 pj3000 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Pittsburgh & Miami
Posts: 5,662
People in New Orleans consider people from Shreveport to be Yankees.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #84  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2020, 9:48 PM
lio45 lio45 is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 32,169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dariusb View Post
I just don't see what the big deal is. I started the thread because I thought it was an interesting topic and I wanted to hear people's opinions. I got some very interesting ones. I certainly wasn't trying to cause confusion. In any case thanks to the people who understood and took the time to contribute.
It's a broader topic.

"Maryland and Delaware are totally Southern culturally in 2020 and will forever be, because they're south of the Mason-Dixon Line geographically" is an interesting discussion to have. Personally, my view is clear - culture and geography are separate concepts and the former can change.

Maybe I'm aware of that due to living in Quebec, which is always only a couple generations away from becoming Louisiana - a Canadian province just like all the other ones.

If you told me (or anyone else) that Quebec is forever guaranteed to be culturally distinct just because it was so at some point in its history, you'd be laughed out of the room.

Now, the only semi-logical argument I've seen to deem NoVa Southern but MD/DE not, is secession in the Civil War 160+ years ago, and it does not hold any water upon scrutiny - it's like saying that Scottish culture would only start to exist if Scotland voted to leave the UK, or that if Quebec voted ever so slightly differently in 1995 (50.5% Leave/49.5% Remain instead of the opposite) and re-joined Canada five years later, its status as Culturally Distinct would be set in stone until the end of times.

If Tennessee voted 50.5% Leave, 49.5% Remain while Kentucky voted 49.5% Leave, 50.5% Remain in early 1861, these two states are now totally culturally different in 2020?!? Makes zero sense.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #85  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2020, 9:59 PM
lio45 lio45 is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 32,169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Will O' Wisp View Post
You did kinda ask for it with that question. Is Virginia losing its southern status because its population is becoming better educated, it voted for Joe Biden, and took down some of its monuments to the confederacy? Is that what being "southern" means: to be dumb, poor, racist, and conservative?

Because if it is, then a whole lot of places in the south aren't very southern, and a whole lot of places in the north aren't northern. Concepts like that don't seem as firm in the 21st century, where rural/urban and service economy/manufacturing divides seem far more prominent than geographic divisions.
? No one said anything like that.

As MonkeyRonin pointed out, if Virginia becomes an extension of the BosWash Corridor culturally, then that's not Southern anymore. Period.

If ~2 million Ontarians from the GTA decided to relocate to the NCR and they all settled in Gatineau, the city would instantly lose its current "no question that that's culturally a Québécois city" status, despite the fact that all those square feet of land are still part of the province.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #86  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2020, 12:24 AM
Dariusb Dariusb is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Belton, TX
Posts: 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
It's a broader topic.

"Maryland and Delaware are totally Southern culturally in 2020 and will forever be, because they're south of the Mason-Dixon Line geographically" is an interesting discussion to have. Personally, my view is clear - culture and geography are separate concepts and the former can change.

Maybe I'm aware of that due to living in Quebec, which is always only a couple generations away from becoming Louisiana - a Canadian province just like all the other ones.

If you told me (or anyone else) that Quebec is forever guaranteed to be culturally distinct just because it was so at some point in its history, you'd be laughed out of the room.

Now, the only semi-logical argument I've seen to deem NoVa Southern but MD/DE not, is secession in the Civil War 160+ years ago, and it does not hold any water upon scrutiny - it's like saying that Scottish culture would only start to exist if Scotland voted to leave the UK, or that if Quebec voted ever so slightly differently in 1995 (50.5% Leave/49.5% Remain instead of the opposite) and re-joined Canada five years later, its status as Culturally Distinct would be set in stone until the end of times.

If Tennessee voted 50.5% Leave, 49.5% Remain while Kentucky voted 49.5% Leave, 50.5% Remain in early 1861, these two states are now totally culturally different in 2020?!? Makes zero sense.
Thanks for your opinion and how you explained it.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #87  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2020, 12:27 AM
Dariusb Dariusb is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Belton, TX
Posts: 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
People in New Orleans consider people from Shreveport to be Yankees.
Really? I've heard them say things like people in Shreveport are more like an extension of east Tx.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #88  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2020, 12:33 AM
Dariusb Dariusb is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Belton, TX
Posts: 753
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
West Virginia should probably be renamed "East Kentucky" at this point.
I wonder if W. Virginia never split from Virginia would they have a different economic outlook or it wouldn't matter?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #89  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2020, 12:52 AM
Manitopiaaa Manitopiaaa is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Alexandria, Royal Commonwealth of Virginia
Posts: 154
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dariusb View Post
I wonder if W. Virginia never split from Virginia would they have a different economic outlook or it wouldn't matter?
They'd be much, much wealthier for sure (aka, their welfare state would be subsidized by Nova). Politically, they'd be no different than they are today. The Appalachian parts of Virginia, for example, behave no differently than their West Virginia brothers.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #90  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2020, 1:07 AM
lio45 lio45 is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 32,169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manitopiaaa View Post
Politically, they'd be no different than they are today.
Except for Virginia(s) having 2 Senators instead of 4.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #91  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2020, 1:36 AM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is offline
INformed before INdignant
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Canada's asterisk
Posts: 52,116
Quote:
Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
It's a broader topic.

"Maryland and Delaware are totally Southern culturally in 2020 and will forever be, because they're south of the Mason-Dixon Line geographically" is an interesting discussion to have. Personally, my view is clear - culture and geography are separate concepts and the former can change.

Maybe I'm aware of that due to living in Quebec, which is always only a couple generations away from becoming Louisiana - a Canadian province just like all the other ones.

If you told me (or anyone else) that Quebec is forever guaranteed to be culturally distinct just because it was so at some point in its history, you'd be laughed out of the room.

Now, the only semi-logical argument I've seen to deem NoVa Southern but MD/DE not, is secession in the Civil War 160+ years ago, and it does not hold any water upon scrutiny - it's like saying that Scottish culture would only start to exist if Scotland voted to leave the UK, or that if Quebec voted ever so slightly differently in 1995 (50.5% Leave/49.5% Remain instead of the opposite) and re-joined Canada five years later, its status as Culturally Distinct would be set in stone until the end of times.

If Tennessee voted 50.5% Leave, 49.5% Remain while Kentucky voted 49.5% Leave, 50.5% Remain in early 1861, these two states are now totally culturally different in 2020?!? Makes zero sense.
It also depends whether the definition of "Southern" changes. But in order for that to happen most of the South needs to be on board.

For example in the case of "Cajun" the definition has evolved to eliminate from the belonging requirement any knowledge of French or associated culture in order to be considered part of it. The definition of Southern or even Québécois could very well be similarly "dumbed down" (so to speak, sorry) at some point.
__________________
"Tout ce qui est exagéré est insignifiant." - Charles-Maurice de Talleyrand-Périgord
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #92  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2020, 2:04 AM
xzmattzx's Avatar
xzmattzx xzmattzx is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Wilmington, DE
Posts: 5,712
Quote:
Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
It's a broader topic.

"Maryland and Delaware are totally Southern culturally in 2020 and will forever be, because they're south of the Mason-Dixon Line geographically" is an interesting discussion to have. Personally, my view is clear - culture and geography are separate concepts and the former can change.

Maybe I'm aware of that due to living in Quebec, which is always only a couple generations away from becoming Louisiana - a Canadian province just like all the other ones.

If you told me (or anyone else) that Quebec is forever guaranteed to be culturally distinct just because it was so at some point in its history, you'd be laughed out of the room.

Now, the only semi-logical argument I've seen to deem NoVa Southern but MD/DE not, is secession in the Civil War 160+ years ago, and it does not hold any water upon scrutiny - it's like saying that Scottish culture would only start to exist if Scotland voted to leave the UK, or that if Quebec voted ever so slightly differently in 1995 (50.5% Leave/49.5% Remain instead of the opposite) and re-joined Canada five years later, its status as Culturally Distinct would be set in stone until the end of times.

If Tennessee voted 50.5% Leave, 49.5% Remain while Kentucky voted 49.5% Leave, 50.5% Remain in early 1861, these two states are now totally culturally different in 2020?!? Makes zero sense.
I'm not sure where in this discussion the Mason-Dixon Line began, but Delaware is not south of the Mason-Dixon Line; it's actually east of the Mason-Dixon Line.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #93  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2020, 6:50 AM
Will O' Wisp Will O' Wisp is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: San Diego
Posts: 410
Quote:
Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
? No one said anything like that.

As MonkeyRonin pointed out, if Virginia becomes an extension of the BosWash Corridor culturally, then that's not Southern anymore. Period.

If ~2 million Ontarians from the GTA decided to relocate to the NCR and they all settled in Gatineau, the city would instantly lose its current "no question that that's culturally a Québécois city" status, despite the fact that all those square feet of land are still part of the province.
There's certainly an implication if it running through the concept. Virginia isn't giving up barbecue, fried chicken, or southern accents.

To use your metaphor, what if Gatineau gave up the idea of nationalism? They keep their language, their cuisine, their culture, the only difference is that these new Québécois think of themselves as Canadians first and foremost. They firmly advocate against any form of special categorization in terms of the law, believing it harms national integration. Politically they vote more similarly to Ontario than they do to most other regions of Quebec. If that happened would Gatineau lose its "Quebec status", even though walking around you wouldn't see a lick of difference between it and anywhere else in the province?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #94  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2020, 7:00 AM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 4,242
Quebec is a much more of a distinctive society than "the South" - which is home to nearly 40% of the US population.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #95  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2020, 1:39 PM
hauntedheadnc's Avatar
hauntedheadnc hauntedheadnc is offline
I even painted a door!
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Greenville, SC - "Birthplace of the light switch rave"
Posts: 10,249
Well, let's just distill things a bit here.

So, people are saying that there is a geographical and historical South, and a cultural South. If that's the case, then what, exactly, is this Southern culture -- and more importantly, why can that Southern culture not include big cities, aggressive drivers, Hindu temples, signs in Mandarin, Catholics, decent dim sum, bodegas, conveyor belt sushi, El Salvadorans, subzero winter temperatures, and all the rest?

Just going from the stereotype of Southern "hospitality" alone, anyone who thinks Southerners are hospitable has never driven in the South. Atlanta is home to the most vicious drivers on the planet.
__________________
"To sustain the life of a large, modern city in this cloying, clinging heat is an amazing achievement. It is no wonder that the ...men and women in Greenville walk with a slow, dragging pride, as if they had taken up a challenge and intended to defy it without end." -- Rebecca West for The New Yorker, 1947
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #96  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2020, 4:28 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is offline
INformed before INdignant
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Canada's asterisk
Posts: 52,116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Will O' Wisp View Post
There's certainly an implication if it running through the concept. Virginia isn't giving up barbecue, fried chicken, or southern accents.

To use your metaphor, what if Gatineau gave up the idea of nationalism? They keep their language, their cuisine, their culture, the only difference is that these new Québécois think of themselves as Canadians first and foremost. They firmly advocate against any form of special categorization in terms of the law, believing it harms national integration. Politically they vote more similarly to Ontario than they do to most other regions of Quebec. If that happened would Gatineau lose its "Quebec status", even though walking around you wouldn't see a lick of difference between it and anywhere else in the province?
Gatineau is already part-way there, as francophones here support independence in much lower numbers than elsewhere in Quebec. To the tune of about 25% in the last referendum vs. 50-70% in the rest of Quebec.

Separatist parties also don't fare very well here and they've only extremely sporadically elected reps from here, though municipal politicians with separatist leanings generally do OK - the city has no power to separate from Canada.

We are also OK with more general Québécois nationalist principles, if they stop short of independence.

For example the CAQ won 3 of 5 seats in the region in 2018.
__________________
"Tout ce qui est exagéré est insignifiant." - Charles-Maurice de Talleyrand-Périgord
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #97  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2020, 7:45 PM
Buckeye Native 001 Buckeye Native 001 is offline
E pluribus unum
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Arizona
Posts: 30,534
Quote:
Originally Posted by hauntedheadnc View Post
Just going from the stereotype of Southern "hospitality" alone, anyone who thinks Southerners are hospitable has never driven in the South. Atlanta is home to the most vicious drivers on the planet.
Ditto Miami, bit that opens up a whole other can of worms about what's "southern" when you start throwing South Floridians into the mix.

My gf's mom is from West Virginia. I never fully appreciated how much of an insult it is to say "bless your heart" to someone until she starts talking about her extended family.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #98  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2020, 8:01 PM
hauntedheadnc's Avatar
hauntedheadnc hauntedheadnc is offline
I even painted a door!
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Greenville, SC - "Birthplace of the light switch rave"
Posts: 10,249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001 View Post
My gf's mom is from West Virginia. I never fully appreciated how much of an insult it is to say "bless your heart" to someone until she starts talking about her extended family.
The only time "bless your/his/her/their heart" is not an insult is when you're referring to a child, or someone with intellectual disabilities, and usually one who has injured themselves. Of course, if you're referring to a child who is ugly, annoying, or stupid, then it's as much of an insult as when you use it with anyone else.
__________________
"To sustain the life of a large, modern city in this cloying, clinging heat is an amazing achievement. It is no wonder that the ...men and women in Greenville walk with a slow, dragging pride, as if they had taken up a challenge and intended to defy it without end." -- Rebecca West for The New Yorker, 1947
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #99  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2020, 8:45 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 4,842
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dariusb View Post
I wonder if W. Virginia never split from Virginia would they have a different economic outlook or it wouldn't matter?
It'd be the same, but the residents would have access to better in-state colleges.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #100  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2020, 8:53 PM
JManc's Avatar
JManc JManc is online now
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Houston
Posts: 30,229
Quote:
Originally Posted by hauntedheadnc View Post
Just going from the stereotype of Southern "hospitality" alone, anyone who thinks Southerners are hospitable has never driven in the South. Atlanta is home to the most vicious drivers on the planet.
Atlanta is a big cosmopolitain area with people from everywhere living there. Like Houston. It's still southern but heavily influenced by decades of northerners and immigrants moving in and driving like assholes. Traffic has always been bad has become progressively more aggressive.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 4:55 AM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.