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View Poll Results: Will Virginia one day not be considered southern?
Yes 25 38.46%
No 40 61.54%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

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  #61  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2020, 6:54 AM
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Originally Posted by hauntedheadnc View Post
Demography can change all it wants, but geography cannot and will not. Geography and history dictate where a place is. How it feels is irrelevant. Going by how a place feels, we can therefore declare that Huntsville is not in Alabama because of the presence of NASA, and that the Research Triangle Park is not in North Carolina because Andy and Opie never stroll through en route to the fishing pond.
Agreed completely. These sorts of discussions always strike me as absurd, because "southern" is a reference to geography. A southern state doesn't suddenly cease to be southern just because it may not fit perfectly into the box created for it by a non-southerner using arbitrary, rigid, and largely outdated stereotypes. We might as well be discussing whether Staten Island still qualifies as a New York borough because it went for Trump in the recent election. Sometimes I get the impression that some people from the East Coast view their region as some sort of exclusive club that is always looking for new members, and once a place is deemed 'acceptable' by those who think they know better, they start trying to recruit that place into their club, whether that place wants it or not.
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  #62  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2020, 7:21 AM
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Originally Posted by BnaBreaker View Post
Agreed completely. These sorts of discussions always strike me as absurd, because "southern" is a reference to geography. A southern state doesn't suddenly cease to be southern just because it may not fit perfectly into the box created for it by a non-southerner using arbitrary, rigid, and largely outdated stereotypes. We might as well be discussing whether Staten Island still qualifies as a New York borough because it went for Trump in the recent election. Sometimes I get the impression that some people from the East Coast view their region as some sort of exclusive club that is always looking for new members, and once a place is deemed 'acceptable' by those who think they know better, they start trying to recruit that place into their club, whether that place wants it or not.
110%. I hate when people make where they are from the most interesting thing about themselves.
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  #63  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2020, 8:22 AM
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Exactly!

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Originally Posted by hauntedheadnc View Post
Considering that Richmond was the capital of the Confederacy, no.

But then again, despite the fact that the first structure in what became the city of Miami was a sugar cane plantation, complete with slaves, and despite the fact that Florida fought for the Confederacy, and observes Confederate Memorial Day... People will vociferously fight the notion that Miami, or Florida, are Southern. Then again, they do the same with Atlanta, or any Southern city that boasts any diversity beyond the Black and white dynamic.

I think, actually that might be the better determinant of whether a place is Southern. Does it resemble an old episode of In the Heat of the Night? If so, it is Southern. However, if you can reliably obtain a good bowl of tom yum, a decent sushi roll, or if there is an Indian grocery store in the vicinity where one can purchase butter made from water buffalo milk, then it is not Southern.

In case it wasn't clear, I think the whole argument is silly. Is the place in question physically located south of the Mason-Dixon line? Was it a part of the Confederacy? If so, hooray -- it's Southern, no matter the modern demographics. It's akin to arguing up one side and down the other that some crummy suburb of Boston cannot possibly be in New England because it doesn't look like a Currier and Ives print.
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  #64  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2020, 8:58 AM
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Originally Posted by BnaBreaker View Post
Agreed completely. These sorts of discussions always strike me as absurd, because "southern" is a reference to geography. A southern state doesn't suddenly cease to be southern just because it may not fit perfectly into the box created for it by a non-southerner using arbitrary, rigid, and largely outdated stereotypes. We might as well be discussing whether Staten Island still qualifies as a New York borough because it went for Trump in the recent election. Sometimes I get the impression that some people from the East Coast view their region as some sort of exclusive club that is always looking for new members, and once a place is deemed 'acceptable' by those who think they know better, they start trying to recruit that place into their club, whether that place wants it or not.
I agree as well. To me, the South is a geographical region of the US. That's what's it was, is, and always will be. That geographical meaning encompasses the different cultures within that region. In that sense, places like Virginia, Florida, Texas, etc are Southern despite not having the "Southern" culture in a complete sense anymore.

Since the South is mainly defined geographically, it can literally develop any way it wants and add to its history, just like all the other regions of the country.
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  #65  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2020, 9:04 AM
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Originally Posted by dave8721 View Post
Parts of Florida did actually fight for the Union against the Confederacy. The only part of South Florida that was populated at the time (Key West) stayed with loyal to the Union and was an important union base against the confederacy, basically allowing the union to blockade the South and prevent the South from doing much business in and out of the Gulf of Mexico.
So did parts of Western North Carolina, which led to Confederates committing war crimes against Union loyalists at events such as the Shelton Laurel Massacre.
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  #66  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2020, 4:10 PM
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Originally Posted by bossabreezes View Post
New York, erm, New Amsterdam was a Dutch outpost so clearly NYC is Dutch in culture and this can never change, history matters.
Since you brought it up, regional cultural identifiers are also disappearing in New York. The New York accent is fading just as fast as the southern accent.
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  #67  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2020, 6:38 PM
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Yup, I live in New York and the accent is not common in the under 40 crowd. The only place that still has an extremely marked accent in the region is Long Island, lots of young folks from there still have a strong LI accent.
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  #68  
Old Posted Dec 24, 2020, 7:34 PM
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Originally Posted by BnaBreaker View Post
Agreed completely. These sorts of discussions always strike me as absurd, because "southern" is a reference to geography. A southern state doesn't suddenly cease to be southern just because it may not fit perfectly into the box created for it by a non-southerner using arbitrary, rigid, and largely outdated stereotypes. We might as well be discussing whether Staten Island still qualifies as a New York borough because it went for Trump in the recent election. Sometimes I get the impression that some people from the East Coast view their region as some sort of exclusive club that is always looking for new members, and once a place is deemed 'acceptable' by those who think they know better, they start trying to recruit that place into their club, whether that place wants it or not.
If it's a reference to geography, then Virginia is clearly northern, as it's on the northern half of the East Coast. This argument has been made a dozen times already and no one has bothered to consult a map before making it?
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  #69  
Old Posted Dec 25, 2020, 5:52 PM
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I've always found the argument that once a state grows into this hub of liberalism it ceases to be Southern a ridiculous one.
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  #70  
Old Posted Dec 25, 2020, 7:14 PM
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Originally Posted by SpawnOfVulcan View Post
I've always found the argument that once a state grows into this hub of liberalism it ceases to be Southern a ridiculous one.
That's not the argument. Obviously, God-fearing grits-eating SC/GA blacks who voted Biden are Southern, Cubans in Miami who voted Trump aren't.
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  #71  
Old Posted Dec 25, 2020, 7:51 PM
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Originally Posted by BnaBreaker View Post
Agreed completely. These sorts of discussions always strike me as absurd, because "southern" is a reference to geography. A southern state doesn't suddenly cease to be southern just because it may not fit perfectly into the box created for it by a non-southerner using arbitrary, rigid, and largely outdated stereotypes. We might as well be discussing whether Staten Island still qualifies as a New York borough because it went for Trump in the recent election. Sometimes I get the impression that some people from the East Coast view their region as some sort of exclusive club that is always looking for new members, and once a place is deemed 'acceptable' by those who think they know better, they start trying to recruit that place into their club, whether that place wants it or not.
When I made this thread I was using "southern" referring to the culture of the state and not necessarily geographically. Maybe I should have put that in the initial post.
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  #72  
Old Posted Dec 25, 2020, 8:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Dariusb View Post
When I made this thread I was using "southern" referring to the culture of the state and not necessarily geographically. Maybe I should have put that in the initial post.
It's implicit from the mere fact that southernity is being discussed in the first place.

If it were only about geography, then there'd be no ambiguity at all: Tucson, Arizona is more Southern than Memphis, Charleston, Atlanta and Dallas; that's unarguable fact.
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  #73  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2020, 3:05 AM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
It's implicit from the mere fact that southernity is being discussed in the first place.

If it were only about geography, then there'd be no ambiguity at all: Tucson, Arizona is more Southern than Memphis, Charleston, Atlanta and Dallas; that's unarguable fact.
I just don't see what the big deal is. I started the thread because I thought it was an interesting topic and I wanted to hear people's opinions. I got some very interesting ones. I certainly wasn't trying to cause confusion. In any case thanks to the people who understood and took the time to contribute.
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  #74  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2020, 4:03 AM
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That's not the argument. Obviously, God-fearing grits-eating SC/GA blacks who voted Biden are Southern, Cubans in Miami who voted Trump aren't.
But Florida is Southern, even the southern portion which was watered down by Cubans and Yankees. Get a little bit outside the Miami metro and it reverts back to as it was
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  #75  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2020, 5:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Dariusb View Post
I just don't see what the big deal is. I started the thread because I thought it was an interesting topic and I wanted to hear people's opinions. I got some very interesting ones. I certainly wasn't trying to cause confusion. In any case thanks to the people who understood and took the time to contribute.
You did kinda ask for it with that question. Is Virginia losing its southern status because its population is becoming better educated, it voted for Joe Biden, and took down some of its monuments to the confederacy? Is that what being "southern" means: to be dumb, poor, racist, and conservative?

Because if it is, then a whole lot of places in the south aren't very southern, and a whole lot of places in the north aren't northern. Concepts like that don't seem as firm in the 21st century, where rural/urban and service economy/manufacturing divides seem far more prominent than geographic divisions.
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  #76  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2020, 6:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Will O' Wisp View Post
You did kinda ask for it with that question. Is Virginia losing its southern status because its population is becoming better educated, it voted for Joe Biden, and took down some of its monuments to the confederacy? Is that what being "southern" means: to be dumb, poor, racist, and conservative?

Because if it is, then a whole lot of places in the south aren't very southern, and a whole lot of places in the north aren't northern. Concepts like that don't seem as firm in the 21st century, where rural/urban and service economy/manufacturing divides seem far more prominent than geographic divisions.
Well said. Question for those making this argument that Virginia ceases to be southern because it doesn't meet an arbitrary stereotype: Do you consider central Pennsylvania and central New York "southern?"
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  #77  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2020, 5:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Will O' Wisp View Post
Is that what being "southern" means: to be dumb, poor, racist, and conservative?
Apparently yes.
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  #78  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2020, 5:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Will O' Wisp View Post
You did kinda ask for it with that question. Is Virginia losing its southern status because its population is becoming better educated, it voted for Joe Biden, and took down some of its monuments to the confederacy? Is that what being "southern" means: to be dumb, poor, racist, and conservative?

Because if it is, then a whole lot of places in the south aren't very southern, and a whole lot of places in the north aren't northern. Concepts like that don't seem as firm in the 21st century, where rural/urban and service economy/manufacturing divides seem far more prominent than geographic divisions.
No. I never said any of those things and certainly wasn't trying to imply that especially since I'm a southerner myself. You're assuming that's what I meant. Now when I said southern status maybe I should have said culture instead. Anyway, many gave their opinions without making a big deal out of the topic and I've gotten the answer/answers I was looking for. Like I said before thanks to all who contributed and may you all have a great day.
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  #79  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2020, 5:56 PM
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Originally Posted by BnaBreaker View Post
Well said. Question for those making this argument that Virginia ceases to be southern because it doesn't meet an arbitrary stereotype: Do you consider central Pennsylvania and central New York "southern?"
Maybe you and Will's statement s weren't directed at me specifically but I was not trying to imply southerners were uneducated, backward or anything like that. My question was about the state culturally since it has attracted so many transplants from areas outside of the south.
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  #80  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2020, 6:05 PM
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Originally Posted by BnaBreaker View Post
Agreed completely. These sorts of discussions always strike me as absurd, because "southern" is a reference to geography. A southern state doesn't suddenly cease to be southern just because it may not fit perfectly into the box created for it by a non-southerner using arbitrary, rigid, and largely outdated stereotypes.

In general I'd agree, however Virginia is a bit tougher to pin down as it's geographically part of the transitional mid-Atlantic region. In particular, because its population is skewed to the north, there's an argument to be made that it (increasingly) functions as an extension of the Bos-Wash corridor, which is firmly "Northern".

If the NOVA suburbs were to comprise a majority of the state's population, a case could very well be made that it's not really "Southern" anymore.

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