Tim Hortons Field | 40m | ? | Complete

[bigguy1231]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

So how much of a downtown revitalization catalyst will it be if we end up with a 15000 seat empty stadium next to the CN freight yard and the Ticats playing in a stadium in Burlington?

Well maybe Bob Young should let the city know how much he is willing to invest instead of being coy about it. Indicating the amount he and his investors are willing to invest in the stadium, especially if it is a signifigant percentage of the total cost, would give him more of a say in exactly where it is going to be built.

As for it being built beside the rail yards in Hamilton, the location being bandied about in Burlington is also near the rail yard alongside the 403.

[realcity]

Originally Posted by BCTed

How much of an impossibility is that scenario?

I wouldn't say high, but I think this city is capable of messing anything up

[thistleclub]

The Cats tell the city they desperately need a new stadium. They are in luck. The city, as it happens, intends to build a stadium. The club's management could have immersed themselves in the process or trusted that the city would make an informed choice. They opted for the latter, choosing instead to play Monday morning quarterback. But they still have choices to make: Rally $50 million in support of the Pan Am Stadium or develop their own 25,000-seat stadium at the site of their choosing for $170 million. Or Door #3. They've already been reluctant to discuss project funding in much detail, so it's possible that they'll exercise the classic don't-call-it-extortion-but-we'd-like-you-to-pick-up-the-tab-or-we're-outta-here clause.

[realcity]

More good news about this location
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/739407
--------------------------

City offers residents $1,500
Payment only if stadium site owners allow ground tests
March 18, 2010
THE HAMILTON SPECTATOR
(Mar 18, 2010)
Property owners at the Pan Am stadium site are being offered $1,500 good-faith payments and relocation help as the city begins environmental testing.

The owners in the west harbour area receive the payment when they sign an agreement to allow testing on their property.

No figures were set for relocation assistance as the city prepares to purchase the properties to pave the way for a stadium.

City spokesperson David Adames said the measures are not a response to resident complaints but have been in place as part of the testing program and land acquisition plan.

"We are trying to be sensitive and fair to property owners as we begin the process," said Adames, who is executive director of Tourism Hamilton.

The area's councillor, Bob Bratina, has told residents they should consider consulting lawyers.

He is worried testing could hurt property values if there is significant soil contamination discovered.

Adames stressed findings would not affect the fair market value the city is offering residents. He said testing is being done ahead of buying property to assure construction can begin as quickly as possible.

He added it is not being done to determine whether the stadium would go in the west harbour as city council has already approved the location.

But Adames noted if any dramatic findings were unearthed, that would be reported to council. Council could then reconsider the site.

The city is moving ahead with plans for the stadium while the prime tenant, the CFL's Tiger-Cats, say they can't yet make a business case for moving there.
-----------------

you realize if the Cats don't move in and pay to make it 30,000 seats, it's an empty 15,000 stadium after PanAm.

So Yes they better listen to the Cats and should've asked where they want the stadium since it's the Tiger Cat's home.

So if they discover these homes are toxic and the City decides on Plan B, these homeowners are totally screwed. Unable to sell their house. Bratina offered good advice. What is exactly 'market value' $ for a house on toxic soil?

[thistleclub]

The area's councillor, Bob Bratina, has told residents they should consider consulting lawyers.

He is worried testing could hurt property values if there is significant soil contamination discovered.

Yeah, this is kind of a rotten deal however you slice it. Pass the test, lose your home. Fail the test, keep a home that's as good as worthless. Even if your home wasn't tested, but neighbouring homes were found to be on toxic land, they're tainted by association. But would the city be more compassionate just to let homeowners live on contaminated land, in the name of real estate valuation? I think that the upshot may well be that these folks get relocated regardless of whether the city builds a stadium on the West Harbour site.

As for the Cats, I would argue that they've got to set aside the entitlement issues and start acting like engaged citizens. It's true that the city needs a major tenant to make a 15,000-seat stadium viable. It's also true that the Cats are in no position to build the stadium of their dreams all on their own. The laissez-faire approach they've adopted so far is amateurish and might stem from the mindset that comes from eight decades as virtually the sole tenant of Ivor Wynne: They forget that they're renters. Even without dropping "millions or tens of millions," they could have bankrolled self-interested site studies and put forward some concrete options. (The closest thing to that level of professionalism is the "shadow coup," and the Cats camp is disavowing association with anything of the sort.) Like I've said before, the team has been watching Ivor Wynne rust out around them for the last decade. It's nice that the lightbulb finally came on. Bob Young's stand four months ago – "I'm OK with any site, as long as it makes sense economically over the long term" – is characteristically inoffensive but also Eisenbergian in its vagueness. If they're going to get hard-nosed about the bottom line, they need to do better.

[realcity]

Ti-Cats are a business. And are acting like a business. If the business case can't be made in Hamilton. They could very well relocate to Halifax, London, Halton/Peel, K/W.

[hamiltonguy]

Originally Posted by realcity

Ti-Cats are a business. And are acting like a business. If the business case can't be made in Hamilton. They could very well relocate to Halifax, London, Halton/Peel, K/W.

If they can't make it in Hamilton OR the Hamilton area, they aren't going to make it anywhere else. Their fan base is here.

[realcity]

Of course it's impossible to make a fan base in another city... have you been to Halifax when they have a national or world event. The entire city/province goes mad. I think CFL should put an eastern team there.

[thistleclub]

They're a business, yes. A hand-to-mouth, hope-the-power-stays-on one.

Businesses act in any number of ways, including ways that lead to bankruptcy (eg: most CFL franchises at some point or other during the last 30 years). Any business that relies to such an extent on hand-outs generally finds that it's productive to work with their benefactors to make helping as easy as possible, out of self-interest. Not the Tiger-Cats. Hamilton is sinking $60 million of its Future Fund into this hot mess, and for months the team has been acting like civic dialogue is beneath them. The road to a new stadium isn't likely to get any smoother if they try to build in another region.

And yes, of course the team can relocate anywhere they choose. Baltimore, maybe. (Kidding.) Former Cats owner David Braley lives in Burlington, as does the family of former Cats owner Michael G. DeGroote, as does Ron Joyce and any number of local high rollers. Maybe they'll ante up the $60 million to build in Aldershot. It'd allow us to direct Hamilton's $60 million into green energy, as Herman Turkstra has pitched, or downtown development stimulus, the hoped-for spin-off of the new stadium build.

Even with a more ideal location, the Cats will almost certainly face a different reality in a new facility. Braley's on record as saying that the Argos need 25,000 paying fans a game to pay the bills. The same might apply to the Cats in a new stadium, when their overhead changes dramatically. The team averaged around 22,500 per home game in 2009 (21,500 if you factor out the blue chip Labour Day classic). So a holding pattern isn't an option. Neither is financial success out of the question, even in the CFL. The Jarvis Street braintrust has surely noticed that Regina is roughly the size of Burlington and that the Roughriders have turned a $1.6 million profit two years running.

[thistleclub]

Harbouring doubts
Access and visibility limited at stadium site, say Ticats partner and adviser

John Kernaghan
The Hamilton Spectator
(Mar 19, 2010)

The Tiger-Cats' major partner and senior adviser say the west harbour stadium site has limitations to overcome as a future home for the football club.

Andy Day of Primus and George Schott of Osmington Inc., say the city's chosen site near Bay and Barton streets suffers from access and visibility problems.

In other words, not enough people could get to it by car or drive by it to justify the Tiger-Cats committing a major investment in a larger stadium than the $102-million, 15,000-seat facility required for track and field at the 2015 Pan Am Games.

Ticat president Scott Mitchell has said he can't yet make a compelling business case for the west harbour site.

Primus is the Ticat game-day official presenter and is a candidate to pay for naming rights at a stadium, said CEO Day.

The naming-rights fee would form part of the Canadian Football League club's contribution to a larger stadium.

But Day explained the value of naming rights is tied directly to how many people can view the prominent name on a stadium's exterior.

"The prospect of having our name on the home of the Tiger-Cats excites us," said Day, a Hamilton native.

But what the telecommunications company would contribute declines as the number of people who see the Primus name drops.

Day said he has not done precise math on the west harbour or any alternate sites, but his company does not have the advertising budget of competitors such as Bell or Rogers and must be sure it gets a good return on naming-rights fees.

Schott, CEO of the property developer Osmington Inc., said he advised the Tiger-Cats that the west harbour site was limited because it wouldn't attract a substantial fee for naming rights.

Osmington co-owns Eastgate Square and Centre Mall with the Canadian Pension Plan investment board and Schott, who grew up in the city's east end, said the company has helped develop other sports facilities.

The Toronto-based company is part of a private-equity group which built the $133-million MTS Centre, a hockey arena in Winnipeg.

Schott said he has looked at the six sites the city once offered as a short list as well as the Lafarge slag operation on Windermere Road.

He noted it offered high visibility due to being close to the Queen Elizabeth Way.

City Councillor Bernie Morelli considers it the primary Plan B site if the west harbour plan doesn't work out.

City spokesperson David Adames said negotiations around the west harbour location are in the early stages and pointed out the city has received feelers from potential investors at the site.

Meantime, the CEO of the Pan Am host corporation is hopeful of a solution.

"I trust the parties will get around a table and figure it out," Ian Troop said.

He noted he won't be at that table but is talking to all the parties as site discussions carry forward.

Toronto 2015 chairperson Roger Garland noted "we're always near the table" for all parts of the Games plan. But he stressed officials for the Pan Am host company don't want to interfere with local discussions on venues.

The pair are also keeping an eye on Burlington's Games facility, a $23-million soccer centre that moved from Sherwood Forest to a site southeast of Kerns Road and Highway 5.

It is on hold as the city appeals a Niagara Escarpment Commission decision that found it an unsuitable use at that site.

"They are working it through and we'd like them to see it through," said Troop.


- - - -

As long as we're looking at models to emulate, MTS Centre was 70% private-funded. And it's in downtown Winnipeg (it's basically the size of Copps), connected to hotels, retail, office towers, parking and 40+ transit routes.

On the plus side, a Windermere Road does connect to Van Wagners via the Woodward underpass, and a Lafarge build might provide incentive to fix Burlington Street in order to get it off the list of the province's worst roads.

[thistleclub]

Horwath nixed site as councillor

Carmela Fragomeni
The Hamilton Spectator
(Mar 19, 2010)

Horwath says site is not 'economically feasible at this point.'

Ontario NDP Leader Andrea Horwath disagrees with building a stadium near the west harbour.

She was against it while on city council and she's still not crazy about the proposed Pan Am Games stadium site in her riding.

Last month council finalized an area around the former Rheem Canada plant on Barton Street West as the site for the stadium, warm-up track and velodrome.

Horwath told a Spectator editorial board meeting Wednesday that she has expressed concerns to Mayor Fred Eisenberger and David Adames, head of the city's Pan Am working group. But she also made it clear to them that she is "very respectful" of the city's decision to put the stadium there since she is no longer on council and not privy to all the reasons.

"I am a west harbour fan," said Horwath, adding that while on council there was an issue about where to build a stadium to replace Ivor Wynne.

She said the west harbour was considered and studied and after a lengthy planning process, the resulting secondary development plan for the west harbour did not support a stadium.

"And I support the secondary plan."

One concern is that the lands are contaminated and will take a lot of money to clean up, she said.

"It's not economically feasible at this point."

But with talk of GO Transit and a new Via station on James Street North and with plans for light rail or mass transit for the city, the feasibility of a cleanup could improve, she said. If so, any development should be residential, she said.

[SteelTown]

Ticats’ plan for stadium coming in a month
Ticat report to pit city-building against business interests

BY ANDREW DRESCHEL

Brace yourself. The simmering Pan Am stadium debate will soon be reaching the boiling point.

The million-dollar question of how much money the Tiger-Cats are willing to kick in for the west harbour site will be answered in about a month.

That’s when the CFL club discloses its business plan to the city.

And councillors who voted for the location won’t likely be jumping for joy at the results.

Though he refuses to say it directly before the report is released, Ticat president Scott Mitchell is signalling the site doesn’t work for the football club or its corporate partners.

That will affect how much money they bring to the table, which in turn will fluster efforts to raise enough private dollars to upgrade the stadium to 25,000 seats from 15,000 seats.

Mitchell says the report will deliver a specific vision of what the team can contribute and what the business case is for the Ticats operating in the west harbour
.
“My personal enthusiasm is there in terms of the theoretical, but when we drill down to the numbers, we’re running into some serious challenges,” Mitchell says.

The report will also include input from the team’s private-sector partners, possibly a specific alternative site, and a fan survey that, according to Mitchell, stresses the importance of on-site parking and easy access, two features missing from the west harbour.

Mitchell says the Ticats will contribute to a Hamilton stadium, no matter where it’s located. The question is to what extent.

“The only reason a stadium would ever be built in the west harbour is if it has an anchoring tenant and that would have to be the Tiger-Cats, so inevitably we’d have at minimum a lease, which means we would be contributing to the stadium.”

In other words, the worst-case scenario is the Ticats might contribute nothing but rent payments if the city forges ahead with the west harbour plan.

That’s a far cry from Ticat owner Bob Young’s initial promise of millions.

But Mitchell insists Young’s vague commitment was predicated on the right conditions. Presumably, the business plan will formally spell out what those are and why they’re lacking in the west harbour.

For months, the Ticats have been sending out trial balloons hinting the site picked by council won’t work in terms of generating enough revenue to make the stadium or the team financially sustainable.

Their business plan will raise the stakes in a high-level chess game pitting council’s “city-building” vision against private-sector interests that feel the wrong site has been chosen, albeit for the right reasons of wanting to clean up a brownfield and sparking transit and downtown development.

Once the Ticats plainly state their case, the west harbour will be facing two hurdles — unknown remediation costs and a reluctant tenant with marshalled arguments and business allies on its side.

Mitchell stresses the Ticats and city have a good relationship and will work together to find a solution to replace Ivor Wynne Stadium in time for the 2015 Pan Am Games.

He says the city is not threatening to build a smaller stadium that doesn’t suit the team’s needs. And the team isn’t threatening to move if it doesn’t get what it wants.

But he says nobody should harbour the illusion that Young is interested in owning a team that continues to lose millions of dollars.

“He’s not. Let’s get that on the record. He’s not.” How much is Young losing? “I’m not going to get into that,” Mitchell says. “That’s Bob’s personal finances. But it’s not making any money now by any stretch. It’s got a long way to go. We’re losing millions of dollars.”

And, Mitchell says, the Ticats do not want to go to a stadium where they know they’re going to lose millions more.

[realcity]

West Harbour supporters are really getting quiet now.

[hamiltonguy]

Originally Posted by realcity

Of course it's impossible to make a fan base in another city... have you been to Halifax when they have a national or world event. The entire city/province goes mad. I think CFL should put an eastern team there.

Ideally I would like to see Winnipeg move back to the western div and put a team back in Ottawa and a new one in Halifax for eastern div. Ron Joyce loves Halifax maybe he'd buy an expansion team. Mr Brailey give him a call.

What I'm saying is, IF the current team management can't make it work in a city where they have a loyal fan base and part of a huge region, they likely can't make it work in Halifax. That's not to say I don't think someone else could.

[hamiltonguy]

Originally Posted by thistleclub

Harbouring doubts
Access and visibility limited at stadium site, say Ticats partner and adviser

John Kernaghan
The Hamilton Spectator
(Mar 19, 2010)

The Tiger-Cats' major partner and senior adviser say the west harbour stadium site has limitations to overcome as a future home for the football club.

Andy Day of Primus and George Schott of Osmington Inc., say the city's chosen site near Bay and Barton streets suffers from access and visibility problems.

In other words, not enough people could get to it by car or drive by it to justify the Tiger-Cats committing a major investment in a larger stadium than the $102-million, 15,000-seat facility required for track and field at the 2015 Pan Am Games.

Ticat president Scott Mitchell has said he can't yet make a compelling business case for the west harbour site.

Primus is the Ticat game-day official presenter and is a candidate to pay for naming rights at a stadium, said CEO Day.

The naming-rights fee would form part of the Canadian Football League club's contribution to a larger stadium.

But Day explained the value of naming rights is tied directly to how many people can view the prominent name on a stadium's exterior.

"The prospect of having our name on the home of the Tiger-Cats excites us," said Day, a Hamilton native.

But what the telecommunications company would contribute declines as the number of people who see the Primus name drops.

Day said he has not done precise math on the west harbour or any alternate sites, but his company does not have the advertising budget of competitors such as Bell or Rogers and must be sure it gets a good return on naming-rights fees.

Schott, CEO of the property developer Osmington Inc., said he advised the Tiger-Cats that the west harbour site was limited because it wouldn't attract a substantial fee for naming rights.

Osmington co-owns Eastgate Square and Centre Mall with the Canadian Pension Plan investment board and Schott, who grew up in the city's east end, said the company has helped develop other sports facilities.

The Toronto-based company is part of a private-equity group which built the $133-million MTS Centre, a hockey arena in Winnipeg.

Schott said he has looked at the six sites the city once offered as a short list as well as the Lafarge slag operation on Windermere Road.

He noted it offered high visibility due to being close to the Queen Elizabeth Way.

City Councillor Bernie Morelli considers it the primary Plan B site if the west harbour plan doesn't work out.

City spokesperson David Adames said negotiations around the west harbour location are in the early stages and pointed out the city has received feelers from potential investors at the site.

Meantime, the CEO of the Pan Am host corporation is hopeful of a solution.

"I trust the parties will get around a table and figure it out," Ian Troop said.

He noted he won't be at that table but is talking to all the parties as site discussions carry forward.

Toronto 2015 chairperson Roger Garland noted "we're always near the table" for all parts of the Games plan. But he stressed officials for the Pan Am host company don't want to interfere with local discussions on venues.

The pair are also keeping an eye on Burlington's Games facility, a $23-million soccer centre that moved from Sherwood Forest to a site southeast of Kerns Road and Highway 5.

It is on hold as the city appeals a Niagara Escarpment Commission decision that found it an unsuitable use at that site.

"They are working it through and we'd like them to see it through," said Troop.


- - - -

As long as we're looking at models to emulate, MTS Centre was 70% private-funded. And it's in downtown Winnipeg (it's basically the size of Copps), connected to hotels, retail, office towers, parking and 40+ transit routes.

On the plus side, a Windermere Road does connect to Van Wagners via the Woodward underpass, and a Lafarge build might provide incentive to fix Burlington Street in order to get it off the list of the province's worst roads.

I really don't think there is a worse site for the stadium than sitting right next to the factories. Even the airport is better.

[hamiltonguy]

Originally Posted by thistleclub

They're a business, yes. A hand-to-mouth, hope-the-power-stays-on one.

Businesses act in any number of ways, including ways that lead to bankruptcy (eg: most CFL franchises at some point or other during the last 30 years). Any business that relies to such an extent on hand-outs generally finds that it's productive to work with their benefactors to make helping as easy as possible, out of self-interest. Not the Tiger-Cats. Hamilton is sinking $60 million of its Future Fund into this hot mess, and for months the team has been acting like civic dialogue is beneath them. The road to a new stadium isn't likely to get any smoother if they try to build in another region.

And yes, of course the team can relocate anywhere they choose. Baltimore, maybe. (Kidding.) Former Cats owner David Braley lives in Burlington, as does the family of former Cats owner Michael G. DeGroote, as does Ron Joyce and any number of local high rollers. Maybe they'll ante up the $60 million to build in Aldershot. It'd allow us to direct Hamilton's $60 million into green energy, as Herman Turkstra has pitched, or downtown development stimulus, the hoped-for spin-off of the new stadium build.

Even with a more ideal location, the Cats will almost certainly face a different reality in a new facility. Braley's on record as saying that the Argos need 25,000 paying fans a game to pay the bills. The same might apply to the Cats in a new stadium, when their overhead changes dramatically. The team averaged around 22,500 per home game in 2009 (21,500 if you factor out the blue chip Labour Day classic). So a holding pattern isn't an option. Neither is financial success out of the question, even in the CFL. The Jarvis Street braintrust has surely noticed that Regina is roughly the size of Burlington and that the Roughriders have turned a $1.6 million profit two years running.

Toronto has the problem of filling the Rogers Centre. That is one thing the Cats won't have to deal with. But I agree the holding pattern isn't working. But its a myriad of factors. They've had a poor team lately, Ivor Wynne is a depressing place to be at, and to be quite frank they've done a poor job reaching out beyond their traditional fan base. That said they've made a lot of positive moves from when they've taken over.

[thistleclub]

When the Als trade up their stadium, the Cats will be strong contenders for worst attendance in the league. That kind of feel-good moment isn't going to stop the money from falling out the bottom of the bucket.

I'm happy to have a strong private sector plan come forward, although again I think the timing is half-assed. (And still the team is bringing naming rights to the table, as if they're the Primus Tiger-Cats.) If the project moves significantly outside of downtown, though, it arguably betrays part of the rationale for siphoning $60 million out of the Future Fund, namely moving toward goals like brownfield remediation and downtown renewal.

[mdsweet]

I suspect the Spec is really working hard to find more people who aren't on board with the West Harbour site, since I doubt Horvath came forward herself to say "Oh by the way, way back when I expressed concerns" etc.
With that said, I'm sick of hearing from every Johnny-come-lately on this issue. Very frustrating. If you were so bloody concerned with this one particular proposed location for the stadium, you should have said something before council voted. ("You" referring to any of the stakeholders involved) Its not like anyone was caught off guard by this issue. Or maybe they were simply caught off guard that council actually made a decision rather than postponing! Now all the dissenters are scrambling to get in the game that they thought was going to overtime.

[BrianE]

I don't know why Windermere Road keeps getting mentioned. I drive by there regularly when exiting onto Burlington St. It's digusting, you would have to pay me to sit a hot afternoon at that location without a breathing mask.

Not only that but this helpful link from Raisethehammer.org to the Hamilton Stacks Blog. Shows that area gets blasted like a shotgun on a regular basis by discharges from Stelco and Dofasco and a dozen other properties to the west of it

Could you imagine? Sitting there watching international athletes compete and start to feel something like rain hit the top of your head only to look up and its a black cloud of soot blowing off the coke piles.

Half the reason I like the West Harbour location is that we never ever get a strong wind out of the east. Whatever we do, this stadium has to be to the west or South of the Industrial area.

Prevailing Winds, people! heavy industry isn't going anywhere for a while!

[SteelTown]

Yea I know the pipe that's responsible for the black soot is literally right next to Windermere. You'd probably need to wash down the stadium once a week. Within a year the sign for the stadium would probably be covered in black.

From what I heard the city wants to buy the property and turn it into a park along with the Windermere Basin to create a green gateway. Think they've even begun the negotiation to buy the entire Lafarge site.

With regards to the residence of West Harbourfront I think it's best the city buy their property and they move elsewhere. It'll be better for their health. Try finding another deal where the city will pay for moving out your furniture. Seal up the entire site and do the brownfield work. Better for the environment and citizen's health.