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  #821  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2019, 4:58 AM
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Originally Posted by SamInTheLoop View Post
Outrageous that there is no actual park.

Yet another reason to hate Lincoln Yards.
So the renderings all lie then? Why did they even make them look like there would be parks?
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  #822  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2019, 1:49 PM
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They are parks, but won't be operated by the Chicago Park District is my understanding. The grass and landscaping and stuff will be just as real.
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  #823  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2019, 3:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Barrelfish View Post
They are parks, but won't be operated by the Chicago Park District is my understanding. The grass and landscaping and stuff will be just as real.
And the rules around it will be..? It sucks it's not public but ultimately up to them to determine whether or not how to enforce the rules. Hopefully they aren't jerks about it and will let "outside" people use it.
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  #824  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2019, 3:43 PM
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Originally Posted by marothisu View Post
And the rules around it will be..? It sucks it's not public but ultimately up to them to determine whether or not how to enforce the rules. Hopefully they aren't jerks about it and will let "outside" people use it.
Check out the Master plan (starting around page 50 of the pdf): https://www.lincolnyards.com/sites/d...y2019_web3.pdf

The opening paragraph is (emphasis added)
Quote:
Public open space, accessible and welcoming to all, will be at the heart of the Lincoln Yards neighborhood. The comprehensive approach to open space is integral to the entire development. Substantial open space on both sides of the river will be programmed to attract a broad diversity of users from Lincoln Yards, the surrounding neighborhoods and across the city. Offering expansive views of Chicago's skyline, the park is positioned with multiple connections to the surrounding community.
I don't know how much of this will become legally binding, but they are certainly making the right noises.
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  #825  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2019, 4:33 PM
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Mr. Downtown's point is that until the land is actually given to the Park District, any "public" space is actually privately held. And with that could come rules that severely limit the public's access to the space which we have seen several times over with supposed "public" private spaces.
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  #826  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2019, 6:32 PM
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Originally Posted by BorisMolotov View Post
Mr. Downtown's point is that until the land is actually given to the Park District, any "public" space is actually privately held. And with that could come rules that severely limit the public's access to the space which we have seen several times over with supposed "public" private spaces.
Anyone have examples of sizeable "park"land being constrained from the public? Genuine question
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  #827  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2019, 3:25 PM
BuildThemTaller BuildThemTaller is offline
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Originally Posted by BorisMolotov View Post
Mr. Downtown's point is that until the land is actually given to the Park District, any "public" space is actually privately held. And with that could come rules that severely limit the public's access to the space which we have seen several times over with supposed "public" private spaces.
What's the situation with the Riverwalk? Developers have to create publicly accessible space along the river. Does the Chicago Park District operate any of the space?
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  #828  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2019, 3:36 PM
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Originally Posted by BorisMolotov View Post
Mr. Downtown's point is that until the land is actually given to the Park District, any "public" space is actually privately held. And with that could come rules that severely limit the public's access to the space which we have seen several times over with supposed "public" private spaces.
People always make this argument, but I don't understand why Sterling Bay closing "Lincoln Yards Park" for a private event is any different than the Park District closing Grant Park for Lollapalooza. Park closures can happen regardless of public/private ownership.

The Riverwalk is a slightly different story since we consider it a transportation amenity and not just an open space, but even our transportation routes (streets) are often closed for festivals, parades, block parties and such.
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  #829  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2019, 12:17 AM
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Good point ardecila.
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  #830  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2019, 6:08 PM
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
People always make this argument, but I don't understand why Sterling Bay closing "Lincoln Yards Park" for a private event is any different than the Park District closing Grant Park for Lollapalooza. Park closures can happen regardless of public/private ownership.

The Riverwalk is a slightly different story since we consider it a transportation amenity and not just an open space, but even our transportation routes (streets) are often closed for festivals, parades, block parties and such.

You're either misunderstanding the point that was raised or accidentally conflating it with another issue. The issue that was raised wasn't one of temporary closures of public spaces but rather accessibility rules that may limit the utility of the space for public (e.g. non-resident) users. Things like controlled access points where people entering or exiting are monitored by security or instituting bag checks for any items that are banned from the park. Other restrictions on group size or activities (no ball or contact sport, no skateboards of bicycles, no grilling or picnicking, no music, etc.) could also come into play. Since it's private property the owners would be within their rights to take such measures but those kind of restrictions could also discourage the public from using the park.
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  #831  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2019, 6:18 PM
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Originally Posted by BonoboZill4 View Post
Anyone have examples of sizeable "park"land being constrained from the public? Genuine question

The "public" park above the British International School in the Roosevelt Collection. The land the school sits on was originally reserved for an at-grade public park but McCaffery instead had the PD amended to insert the school on the land and the park above it. The park is only accessible via the Roosevelt Collection (subject to their hours and accessibility), an exterior staircase, or an elevator next to the BISC. The hours are also more limited to 9am to 9pm.
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  #832  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2019, 9:30 PM
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You're either misunderstanding the point that was raised or accidentally conflating it with another issue. The issue that was raised wasn't one of temporary closures of public spaces but rather accessibility rules that may limit the utility of the space for public (e.g. non-resident) users. Things like controlled access points where people entering or exiting are monitored by security or instituting bag checks for any items that are banned from the park. Other restrictions on group size or activities (no ball or contact sport, no skateboards of bicycles, no grilling or picnicking, no music, etc.) could also come into play. Since it's private property the owners would be within their rights to take such measures but those kind of restrictions could also discourage the public from using the park.
The land that was once slated for a stadium will become, specifically, sports fields for youth. Even if it's not open to the public per se (i.e. league play only) it will still take pressure off of other parks in the area that are public.

Also, do we need more parks where people can grill or play loud music? We need different kinds of open space for different kinds of activities, and even the Park District's properties have different rules for each park establishing what is or is not permitted. Personally I appreciate having some parks that are a little more quiet and relaxing, even if that isn't everyone's cup of tea.

Anyway, here is the text of the final PD for Lincoln Yards South pertaining to park space. Riverwalk and park access is guaranteed from 6am to 11pm, and through-access is guaranteed even in the case of a private event. Sterling Bay will establish a park advisory council run by the Park District to manage the park, and legally bind themselves to providing public access.

Quote:
18. The Applicant acknowledges the importance of the Chicago River as a resource for both commerce and recreation and also acknowledges the City's goals of improving the appearance, quality and accessibility of the river, as contained in the waterway planned development guidelines in the Chicago Zoning Ordinance (Secfion 17-8-0912) and the Chicago River Corridor Design Guidelines and Standards, as amended. The Applicant also acknowledges the desirability to include wildlife habitat and other natural features in or near the water's edge and shall work with the City and interested parties to provide such features to the extent practical. To further these goals, the Applicant agrees, as set forth in the Plans, to: (a) provide a landscaped 30-foot-wide river setback and continuous riverside trail as indicated on the Site Plan (the "Riverwalk") as portions of the Property adjacent to the Chicago River are developed and, (b) permit connection of such setback and trail to the setback and trails of adjacent properties when the river edges of the adjacent properties are similarly improved. The Applicant shall permit un-gated and unobstructed public access to the river setback, and provide informational and wayfinding signage at all entries that the Riverwalk is open to the public, free of charge, during normal park hours from 6:00am to 11:00pm every day of the year (subject to occasional partial closure for private use provided that a path providing access during such closures shall be maintained through the river setback). The Riverwalk improvements shall be constructed in conjunction with adjacent riverfront development parcels and shall be completed prior to receipt of the Certificate of Occupancy for such adjacent parcels, provided that plantings may be delayed if consistent with good landscape practice, but not longer than one year following receipt of the final Certificate of Occupancy for the first principal building within such development phase, if due to delays in permitting by any govemmental or quasi-governmental authorities having jurisdiction over such improvements including, without limitation, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, the Metropolitan Water Reclamation District of Greater Chicago, the Illinois Department of Natural Resources - Office of Water Resources, the Coast Guard and CDOT or if due to delays or inability to perform such acts due to causes beyond the reasonable control of the Applicant.

In addition to the Riverwalk, and subject to the receipt of all necessary permits and approvals, the Applicant or its successors and assigns, at its sole cost, shall design and construct the open space improvements in Subarea B (hereinafter the "Park"). Upon completion of the Park, the Applicant, its successors and assigns and, if different than the Applicant, the legal title holders and any ground lessors, shall be responsible for maintaining and managing the Park for the purposes set forth herein, including ensuring that the Park's landscaping is well maintained, that the vegetation and plantings are kept in a healthy condition and that the Park facilities are clean, well lit, litter free and clear of snow (hardscaped areas) and debris. The Applicant shall provide sufficient liability insurance coverage for the operation of the Park for public use, and provide for the creation of a park advisory council, as defined by the Chicago Park District Code, to include community representation for the coordinated programming of the park. The Applicant shall provide informational and wayfinding signage at all entries that the Park is open to the public (subject to occasional partial closure for private use provided that a path providing access during such closures shall be maintained through the Park), free of charge, during normal park hours from 6:00am to 11:00pm every day of the year. During winter months, the Applicant may enclose portions of the Park in a temporary climate-controlled manner with access managed in accordance and compliance with the Chicago Park District Code. The maintenance and management obligations contained herein shall continue for the life of this Planned Development.

The Park improvements shall be constructed as follows:
• Interim Park improvements: An interim park that includes one temporary multipurpose recreational field, walking paths and parking (as approved by DPD as part of Site Plan Approval) shall be constructed on a portion of the land located west of North Throop Street and south of West Wabansia Avenue by December 31, 2020. The interim parking required herein shall not be subject to standard irrigation, landscaping, streetscape, surfacing and drainage requirements, as reviewed and approved by DPD and CDOT. The park advisory council shall be established within 6 months from the completion of the interim park improvements.
• Final Park improvements: The Park improvements shall be completed prior to issuance of a certificate of occupancy for the building that crosses the threshold of 50% of the total allowed floor area in the Planned Development.

Park improvements may be delayed if consistent with good landscape practice, but not longer than one year following the timing for construction of the final open space improvements set forth herein.

Prior to issuance of the first building permit for the Planned Development, the Applicant will enter into a development and maintenance agreement (the "DEMA") with the City for the construction, maintenance, and management of the Park' and the Riverwalk. The DEMA obligations shall be binding upon the Applicant, its successors and assigns, including but not limited to a homeowners or master association whose purpose includes maintaining the Park and the Riverwalk. Upon completion of the Park, the public access provided for herein shall be memorialized in a public access easement agreement (which may be included in the DEMA) with and for the benefit of the City. The recording and other costs associated with establishing the easement shall be the responsibility of the Applicant. A copy of said public access easement agreement shall be on file with DPD.

The Commissioner is hereby authorized to enter into the DEMA (or more than one DEMA if the Commissioner deems necessary depending on the phasing of the development) and all other documents contemplated by the Statement and, in his/her sole discretion, may modify by minor change the foregoing requirements, without further City Council approval, for the DEMA(s) and public access easement agreement(s) so as to permit alternate forms of achieving compliance with the Applicant's construction, maintenance and management obligations and public access rights, such as, by means of example and not limitation, one or more restrictive covenants or owners' reciprocal easement and operation agreements in form and substance acceptable to the City which expressly grant the City necessary enforcement, self-help and lien rights as may be necessary to assure compliance with this Statement.
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Last edited by ardecila; Jun 11, 2019 at 9:49 PM.
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  #833  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2019, 11:15 PM
JK47 JK47 is offline
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
The land that was once slated for a stadium will become, specifically, sports fields for youth. Even if it's not open to the public per se (i.e. league play only) it will still take pressure off of other parks in the area that are public.

The whole point of including green space in these kinds of developments is to increase access to green space by making it closer to where people live. So creating limited use spaces that instead relieve pressure from highly utilized spaces in other neighborhoods is not all that beneficial.


Quote:
Also, do we need more parks where people can grill or play loud music? We need different kinds of open space for different kinds of activities, and even the Park District's properties have different rules for each park establishing what is or is not permitted. Personally I appreciate having some parks that are a little more quiet and relaxing, even if that isn't everyone's cup of tea.

The issue that was raised was whether such private parks could be more restrictive than is generally the case for public parks. The fact that you might actually like such a limited environment is another matter entirely.
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  #834  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2019, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
closing "Lincoln Yards Park" for a private event is [no] different than the Park District closing Grant Park for Lollapalooza.
It's not so much infrequent temporary closures as it is overly restrictive "codes of conduct" that private entities put on their "open space."

Can you fly a kite there? Can you protest there? If kids—or guys in their 20s—are having a friendly snowball fight, will security quickly break it up? Can you take photos there? (That's the first thing I was threatened with arrest for at the British Int'l School).

The Riverwalk, by the way, is a city facility, managed by CDOT. Apparently all the downtown building open space impact fees have for years been going into that rather than creating new parks in the South Loop, West Loop, and River North.
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  #835  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2019, 12:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr Downtown View Post
It's not so much infrequent temporary closures as it is overly restrictive "codes of conduct" that private entities put on their "open space."

Can you fly a kite there? Can you protest there? If kids—or guys in their 20s—are having a friendly snowball fight, will security quickly break it up? Can you take photos there? (That's the first thing I was threatened with arrest for at the British Int'l School).
My concerns exactly.
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  #836  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2019, 3:35 AM
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Originally Posted by JK47 View Post
You're either misunderstanding the point that was raised or accidentally conflating it with another issue. The issue that was raised wasn't one of temporary closures of public spaces but rather accessibility rules that may limit the utility of the space for public (e.g. non-resident) users. Things like controlled access points where people entering or exiting are monitored by security or instituting bag checks for any items that are banned from the park. Other restrictions on group size or activities (no ball or contact sport, no skateboards of bicycles, no grilling or picnicking, no music, etc.) could also come into play. Since it's private property the owners would be within their rights to take such measures but those kind of restrictions could also discourage the public from using the park.

The "public" park above the British International School in the Roosevelt Collection. The land the school sits on was originally reserved for an at-grade public park but McCaffery instead had the PD amended to insert the school on the land and the park above it. The park is only accessible via the Roosevelt Collection (subject to their hours and accessibility), an exterior staircase, or an elevator next to the BISC. The hours are also more limited to 9am to 9pm.
So... Millennium park basically? I'll take it
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  #837  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2019, 4:08 AM
SamInTheLoop SamInTheLoop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Downtown View Post
It's not so much infrequent temporary closures as it is overly restrictive "codes of conduct" that private entities put on their "open space."

Can you fly a kite there? Can you protest there? If kids—or guys in their 20s—are having a friendly snowball fight, will security quickly break it up? Can you take photos there? (That's the first thing I was threatened with arrest for at the British Int'l School).

The Riverwalk, by the way, is a city facility, managed by CDOT. Apparently all the downtown building open space impact fees have for years been going into that rather than creating new parks in the South Loop, West Loop, and River North.

This. All day this.

It's an abomination that Lincoln Yards was approved without the park being public. It truly is a private landscaped area. Nothing more.

Lincoln Yards is what happens when a city doesn't have an actual planning function, just a department on paper. The plan is a joke.
I, for one, will be far from devastated if the lawsuits drag out on this one.
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  #838  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2019, 7:05 AM
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Originally Posted by SamInTheLoop View Post
This. All day this.

It's an abomination that Lincoln Yards was approved without the park being public. It truly is a private landscaped area. Nothing more.

Lincoln Yards is what happens when a city doesn't have an actual planning function, just a department on paper. The plan is a joke.
I, for one, will be far from devastated if the lawsuits drag out on this one.
Amen
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  #839  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2019, 12:04 PM
Vlajos Vlajos is offline
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
The land that was once slated for a stadium will become, specifically, sports fields for youth. Even if it's not open to the public per se (i.e. league play only) it will still take pressure off of other parks in the area that are public.

Also, do we need more parks where people can grill or play loud music? We need different kinds of open space for different kinds of activities, and even the Park District's properties have different rules for each park establishing what is or is not permitted. Personally I appreciate having some parks that are a little more quiet and relaxing, even if that isn't everyone's cup of tea.

Anyway, here is the text of the final PD for Lincoln Yards South pertaining to park space. Riverwalk and park access is guaranteed from 6am to 11pm, and through-access is guaranteed even in the case of a private event. Sterling Bay will establish a park advisory council run by the Park District to manage the park, and legally bind themselves to providing public access.
So it is basically a public park.
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  #840  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2019, 12:40 PM
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To paraphrase Mark Twain, the difference between "basically a public park" and "a public park" is like the difference between lightning and the lightning-bug.
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