Time for Vancouver to Tear Down Its Viaducts?

[MIPS]

Oh my god you are right. I did not realize that all happened this year. That was quick work!

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by MIPS

Seattle and WSDOT has been planning the demolition of the viaduct for decades. It was already on the table when the Nisqually happened.

Vancouver has been pushing excessively hard to remove their viaducts for what, ten years now with most of that election pandering and drafted proposals? The only reason it's rearing its head at all is because people are unimaginative and want at the valueable land underneath.

There has been serious talk of taking the Alaskan Way down since the San Fernando Valley earthquake in 1971.

Not to mention they replaced it with a massive double-decker tunnel dug by the widest tunnel boring machine ever made at a cost of $3.3 billion for the whole project. I don't know if this is an apples to apples comparison.

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Unfortunately, dwindling space means that we have to either add capacity or start picking and choosing. Cars are too damn big for the cities they drive in.

It's a bit of a stretch to say that 100% of the increase is additional workforce... and that said workforce isn't playing downtown too. Yes, the city could be more vibrant, but Trip Advisor/Reddit/the internet in general also says the same about Calgary, Seattle, Portland and basically everywhere west of the Twin Cities and north of San Fran.

IMO the problem isn't about accessibility, it's about not having enough people to be a "fun" city; 2010 was a definite one-off.

Google “no fun city” and see which one comes up. Hint: it’s not San Fran or Seattle, or the Twin Cities

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

Google “no fun city” and see which one comes up. Hint: it’s not San Fran or Seattle, or the Twin Cities

I did say "north and west" of San Fran and the Twins. They're lively - and also have the "minimum threshold" of over four million residents in one place. Cascadia and Western Canada do not, anywhere.

And if we're going to judge cities solely by pop culture, I notice a distinct lack of suicidal grunge music coming out of Vancouver. If said music is considered part of a "fun city," then fair enough, but then that's a problem that has nothing to do with the presence or absence of the viaducts.

[MIPS]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

There has been serious talk of taking the Alaskan Way down since the San Fernando Valley earthquake in 1971.

Not to mention they replaced it with a massive double-decker tunnel dug by the widest tunnel boring machine ever made at a cost of $3.3 billion for the whole project. I don't know if this is an apples to apples comparison.

I actually realized that about three minutes ago.
They replaced their viaducts with a tunnel of equal and expandable capacity. We have nothing of the likes planned because money and local opposition.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by Vin

It's not 700,000: it's 2.5million. People just don't come downtown because there isn't really much to do on a daily basis, unless there is a special festival, sporting event or parade. People are also turned off because it is harder and a lot more expensive to enter downtown these days. All the additional barriers are not necessary IMO.

The only way that this makes any sense whatsoever is if you edit your sentense to read "people are also turned off because it is harder and a lot more expensive to enter downtown these days by car." You're looking at this argument through your windshield, when that's rightly becoming less and less of a priority for a growing number of people.

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I did say "north and west" of San Fran and the Twins. They're lively - and also have the "minimum threshold" of over four million residents in one place. Cascadia and Western Canada do not, anywhere.

And if we're going to judge cities solely by pop culture, I notice a distinct lack of suicidal grunge music coming out of Vancouver. If said music is considered part of a "fun city," then fair enough, but then that's a problem that has nothing to do with the presence or absence of the viaducts.

Population only tells one side of the story. I find even Canadian markets like Ottawa and Calgary to be just as, or in some aspects even livelier than our Downtown. Again, fact is when you google "no fun city"; only one name dominates.

And the Twin Cities don't have 4 million. They are roughly 600,000 more people than we have here (when you use similar metrics).
Regardless; that's not the point. If you are underserving ANY mode of transportation, and it results in even one person staying home rather than going to your downtown area, then you are doing yourself a disservice and not realizing your full potential.

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by MIPS

I actually realized that about three minutes ago.
They replaced their viaducts with a tunnel of equal and expandable capacity. We have nothing of the likes planned because money and local opposition.

And that is the problem. People like to point out road infrastructure that was removed, yet they conveniently forget to point out that it was replaced with something else.

What we have here in Vancouver with the viaducts, is that we plan on removing infrastructure, and replacing it with absolutely nothing.

Whats even worse, is then we have the propaganda from City Hall where they try to convince us that somehow traffic will magically improve when Gr. 2 logic tells us otherwise.

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by logan5

Baltimore is very exciting. You get to run for your life.

You would rather hang out in Downtown Baltimore or Orlando than Vancouver?

Actually, the inner harbour area of Baltimore has much more attractions than Vancouver does.

Its only the other side of downtown that is the middle of hell (24 hours; even during broad daylight).

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

And the Twin Cities don't have 4 million. They are roughly 600,000 more people than we have here (when you use similar metrics).

Touche.

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

Population only tells one side of the story. I find even Canadian markets like Ottawa and Calgary to be just as, or in some aspects even livelier than our Downtown. Again, fact is when you google "no fun city"; only one name dominates...

... Regardless; that's not the point. If you are underserving ANY mode of transportation, and it results in even one person staying home rather than going to your downtown area, then you are doing yourself a disservice and not realizing your full potential.

The title once belonged to NYC, thanks to Bloomberg. In that context I can see it... stemming from festival cancellations, liquor laws and "turn that crap down" neighbours. A city this big gets only this level of foot traffic.

If we want to start a brand image pissing contest:
Ottawa, reputation for museums and parks, dead past 9pm.
Calgary, one giant suburb, except when the Stampede's on.
Baltimore, waterfront's nice, that's about it. What it has over Vancouver is having all its amenities in one spot.

I'd argue that replacing a not-highway network with an integrated network and an entertainment district would help reduce the city's undeserved rep. The argument isn't that traffic'll improve - it's that traffic can hardly get worse. Downtown has already reached peak car at rush hour, and the only way to adequately serve driver demand would be to either convince employers to let people leave at three or stay until eight, or widen Georgia/Dunsmuir/Pender/Hastings/something (definitely not happening); I'd definitely support more and better ways to improve transit access to/from the East Side.

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Touche.



The title once belonged to NYC, thanks to Bloomberg. In that context I can see it... stemming from festival cancellations, liquor laws and "turn that crap down" neighbours. A city this big gets only this level of foot traffic.

If we want to start a brand image pissing contest:
Ottawa, reputation for museums and parks, dead past 9pm.
Calgary, one giant suburb, except when the Stampede's on.
Baltimore, waterfront's nice, that's about it. What it has over Vancouver is having all its amenities in one spot.

I'd argue that replacing a not-highway network with an integrated network and an entertainment district would help reduce the city's undeserved rep. The argument isn't that traffic'll improve - it's that traffic can hardly get worse. Downtown has already reached peak car at rush hour, and the only way to adequately serve driver demand would be to either convince employers to let people leave at three or stay until eight, or widen Georgia/Dunsmuir/Pender/Hastings/something (definitely not happening); I'd definitely support more and better ways to improve transit access to/from the East Side.

Calgary: Would put their nite offerings on a similar level as Vancouver with under half the population.
Ottawa: USED to be dead, but not now. Was shocked just how lively their core has become. Again, would place them pretty darn close (if not slightly ahead) of Vancouver in these regards. The mere fact that they're even mentioned in the same breath as Vancouver is embarrassing for the latter.
As for Baltimore, yes it is better. Way easier to access too. For Vancouver, the mountains and ocean are nice, but that's about it.

The city has worked hard on developing that "rep" and has rightfully earned that title of "No Fun."

And if you want to cater to ALL modes of transportation, leave the existing friggin infrastructure alone, and work on adding others. Don't know why that is a difficult concept in this city.

[GenWhy?]

All modes are being accommodated with viaduct removal, based on current and future data commuting trends, pre-Evergreen Line from the 2016 Canadian Census and the City's own data collection.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

And if you want to cater to ALL modes of transportation, leave the existing friggin infrastructure alone, and work on adding others. Don't know why that is a difficult concept in this city.

That's the point. We shouldn't be catering to cars. Vancouver doesn't want to cater to cars, especially in the downtown core. We need to shift away from this idea that you should be able to drive your polluting steel box everywhere without restrictions.

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

Calgary: Would put their nite offerings on a similar level as Vancouver with under half the population.
Ottawa: USED to be dead, but not now. Was shocked just how lively their core has become. Again, would place them pretty darn close (if not slightly ahead) of Vancouver in these regards. The mere fact that they're even mentioned in the same breath as Vancouver is embarrassing for the latter.
As for Baltimore, yes it is better. Way easier to access too. For Vancouver, the mountains and ocean are nice, but that's about it.

The city has worked hard on developing that "rep" and has rightfully earned that title of "No Fun."

And if you want to cater to ALL modes of transportation, leave the existing friggin infrastructure alone, and work on adding others. Don't know why that is a difficult concept in this city.

but what is dead or unlively? Maybe I am old and I don't care anymore but I like to windowshop on Robson when the stores are closed. Breka cafe all downtown locations are packed late at night, there could definately be more of those kind of places in the downtown core. That new fancy Starbucks on Granville is always packed at night.

West Robson is full of Asian eateries and you can wander down there at 10 or later and they are packed full. Granville Street is not that attractive to most people. I don't know what it needs.

Different cultures socialize differently, I had some Saudi Friends who were students here and they never went out till 11 pm and enjoyed just talking at a cafe. My Korean friends used to like to go for late dinners and socialize that way. There are enough places these days along Kingsway, North Road, etc that cater to that style so need to head downtown.

Scotiabank theatre is frankly not the greatest, their limited screens is even more limited when a big movie comes out because they fill as many theatres with one movie, you can get more choices at the theatres in the burbs. Concerts are getting ridiculous $300 for Celine Dion? Or you just can't get tickets anymore cause they sell out in seconds. I miss the days you could line up at the window.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

Calgary: Would put their nite offerings on a similar level as Vancouver with under half the population.

What?! Are you being serious? Dt Vancouver is clearly on a different level than Calgary. Vancouver may have a self proclaimed title as no fun, but Calgary is truly dull. Calgary has 1 sizable vibrant neighbourhood (Beltline). Mt Pleasant matches the Beltline, then you have Kits, Commercial Dr., West End etc.

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

All modes are being accommodated with viaduct removal, based on current and future data commuting trends, pre-Evergreen Line from the 2016 Canadian Census and the City's own data collection.

All modes are being accommodated by removing infrastructure, and replacing it with nothing?

Thats quite the magic trick

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

That's the point. We shouldn't be catering to cars. Vancouver doesn't want to cater to cars, especially in the downtown core. We need to shift away from this idea that you should be able to drive your polluting steel box everywhere without restrictions.

And then in the process, doesn't cater to [all] customers either. THAT was/is the point

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

but what is dead or unlively? Maybe I am old and I don't care anymore but I like to windowshop on Robson when the stores are closed. Breka cafe all downtown locations are packed late at night, there could definately be more of those kind of places in the downtown core. That new fancy Starbucks on Granville is always packed at night.

West Robson is full of Asian eateries and you can wander down there at 10 or later and they are packed full. Granville Street is not that attractive to most people. I don't know what it needs.

Different cultures socialize differently, I had some Saudi Friends who were students here and they never went out till 11 pm and enjoyed just talking at a cafe. My Korean friends used to like to go for late dinners and socialize that way. There are enough places these days along Kingsway, North Road, etc that cater to that style so need to head downtown.

Scotiabank theatre is frankly not the greatest, their limited screens is even more limited when a big movie comes out because they fill as many theatres with one movie, you can get more choices at the theatres in the burbs. Concerts are getting ridiculous $300 for Celine Dion? Or you just can't get tickets anymore cause they sell out in seconds. I miss the days you could line up at the window.

A new Starbucks? A bakery? That IS exciting.

And stores are closed on Robson alright; but for different reasons

[EastVanMark]

Originally Posted by logan5

What?! Are you being serious? Dt Vancouver is clearly on a different level than Calgary. Vancouver may have a self proclaimed title as no fun, but Calgary is truly dull. Calgary has 1 sizable vibrant neighbourhood (Beltline). Mt Pleasant matches the Beltline, then you have Kits, Commercial Dr., West End etc.

Very serious. Just don't see it. Vancouver may have the edge, but what does that say about it? It should be beating it by a country mile due to its size. But it doesn't. The fact that they're even mentioned in the same breath is embarrassing for Vancouver.

First off I don't see how Mount Pleasant matches Belt line.
Secondly, then you have Kensington, Eau Claire Stephen Ave, 1st St, 6th & 8th AVE, a National Music Centre (which we don't even have) etc etc. ***And,*** an arena district that's on the way that is going to blow away ours where we put a pre school next to our arena, and somehow think that's exciting.

And they have barely started on some of their residential efforts downtown. When that fully gets built out-watch out.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Neither city has ever even made the top fifty, despite having literally twice as many viaducts. They're apparently nice... if you're a tourist. It's almost like quality of life isn't completely dependent on highway access.

Is Vancouver a "No Fun City?" Sure - and many of our contemporaries fit that description too. Gossip, rumour-mongering and nostalgia filters aren't reliable enough to start planning our urban development around them.

It doesn't matter if they can or cannot make it to the top 50. The issue at hand is that we are dropping every year while others are replacing us. Yes, we may have started out strong (from previous policies), but we have become complacent. People should recognize the fact.

Originally Posted by EastVanMark

Very serious. Just don't see it. Vancouver may have the edge, but what does that say about it? It should be beating it by a country mile due to its size. But it doesn't. The fact that they're even mentioned in the same breath is embarrassing for Vancouver.

First off I don't see how Mount Pleasant matches Belt line.
Secondly, then you have Kensington, Eau Claire Stephen Ave, 1st St, 8th AVE, a National Music Centre (which we don't even have) etc etc. ***And,*** an arena district that's on the way that is going to blow away ours where we put a pre school next to our arena, and somehow think that's exciting.

Very well said!