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  #1541  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2020, 6:54 AM
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
Because the existing Hudson tubes already desperately need refurbishment and Gateway is supposed to provide a alternate route for trains while this work is ongoing.

A tunnel from Hoboken would help (some) NJT lines but would not be useful for Amtrak. And that is the other reason - an NJT-only project has to compete for transit funds whereas a tunnel that Amtrak will use can be funded from intercity rail funds, maybe even justify a dedicated appropriation from Congress based on its “national importance”.
National or local importance should be justify by ridership.
Of Amtrak's 30 million plus ridership pre covid, per NY Penn Wiki:
Amtrak has 10.4 million passengers
NJT has 27.3 million passengers
LIRR has 69.7 million passengers

Of the total 107.4 million passengers at NY Penn, Amtrak at 10.4 million passengers makes up less than 10%. Dropping LIRR from the total, with 37.7 million passengers using the tunnels under the Hudson River, Amtrak's 10.4 million passengers makes up 27.5%.

I'll admit 10.4 million passengers is a significant number, but compared to over 90% of the riders using NY Penn being local, and 72.5% of the passengers in the tunnels are riding NJT trains, that is a tough sale suggesting it is of national importance.

Over 62 million passengers use JFK airport. With its higher passengers, would you not suggest it is far more important nationally than all of Amtrak?
Over 29 million passengers use LaGuardia airport. With equivalent Amtrak national passengers, would you not suggest it is as important as all of Amtrak?
Over 9.9 million tourists visited Hawaii by airlines and cruise ships. Compared to Hawaii significantly smaller population, would you suggest that airlines and cruise ships are of national importance?
Over 1 million passengers visit Alaska by cruise ships. Compared to Alaska significantly smaller population, would you suggest that cruise ships are of national importance?

During the aftermath of Hurricane Sandy flooding the tunnels, did NYC intercity travel to other cities within the USA or internationally come to a complete and utter halt?
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  #1542  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2020, 2:49 PM
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I strongly dislike the Hudson Terminal plans since it just creates another very expensive single user stub terminal in a place we should not be building them.

Bore a new two track tunnel from the Hoboken Terminal to the tail tracks of the ESA. This would provide Amtrak redundancy for NEC service between Newark and Sunnyside for when things go awry at Penn. NJT gets midtown west access. Find something to give LIRR for the trouble that costs less than a new terminal in Manhattan. Treat the ESA as a fully thru running station. Yes rolling stock traction power compatibility is an issue but that's much more cheaply resolved than billions for a new station that will take 15 years to happen.
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  #1543  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2020, 4:09 PM
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^ Interesting idea, ideally you could have a station at Washington Square so people could change to the subways to head downtown or to Brooklyn.

It might be easier to connect ESA's stub tracks to Atlantic Terminal, though... that way LIRR would control the whole facility. Or you could combine the two into a four-track tunnel with access to LIRR and MNRR at the north, and NJT/LIRR Atlantic at the south. Then Manhattan has a north/south rail trunk to complement the east-west one thru Penn.
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  #1544  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2020, 6:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
^ Interesting idea, ideally you could have a station at Washington Square so people could change to the subways to head downtown or to Brooklyn.

It might be easier to connect ESA's stub tracks to Atlantic Terminal, though... that way LIRR would control the whole facility. Or you could combine the two into a four-track tunnel with access to LIRR and MNRR at the north, and NJT/LIRR Atlantic at the south. Then Manhattan has a north/south rail trunk to complement the east-west one thru Penn.
The idea of an intermediate station between Grand Central and Hoboken in lower Manhattan with good subway connections is very tempting but I'm also pretty leery for cost and schedule reasons. The MTA's insatiable lust for huge deep cavern stations gives me a lot of pause.


Connecting to Atlantic would be easier but less useful than a trans-Hudson link since East River transit is much less constrained. It would avoid turf war but I'm not even sure LIRR is interested in that given other potential uses for billions in funding. Though if that was the cost of letting NJT/Amtrak also in then I'd be fine with it.

Last edited by k1052; Nov 23, 2020 at 6:24 PM.
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  #1545  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2020, 6:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
^ Interesting idea, ideally you could have a station at Washington Square so people could change to the subways to head downtown or to Brooklyn.

It might be easier to connect ESA's stub tracks to Atlantic Terminal, though... that way LIRR would control the whole facility. Or you could combine the two into a four-track tunnel with access to LIRR and MNRR at the north, and NJT/LIRR Atlantic at the south. Then Manhattan has a north/south rail trunk to complement the east-west one thru Penn.

This is frighteningly similar to what i was planning on posting but with one key difference. I would have the NJT Hoboken tunnel forgo a weird isolated terminal on the West Side Highway and instead cross Manhattan under Canal or Houston with one or two intermediate Manhattan stations at subways, turning southeast weaving under the vicinity of the Baruch housing projects and shooting under the East River, skirting the southwest side of Brooklyn Navy Yard including a subterranean layover yard and terminating at a vastly expanded and reimagined Atlantic Terminal which hopefully one day would be the second-to-last stop on the JFK superexpress to lower Manhattan. Obviously this would cost an extraordinary amount of money and require interagency cooperation but i believe if NY is to continue to thrive the region has to start thinking regionally. Thoughts?

On a side note amongst many possible sidenotes, i'd like to see PATH split at the curve at Sixth Ave and have one line head across Manhattan under 9th St with an Astor Place station with subway connections to 6 R W and continuing to Tompkins Square Park where a large station under the park could be constructed big enough for extra tracks for layover trains OR turn north under Ave B and terminating near the ConEd generating plant that when decommissioned is poised to become a huge redevelopment opportunity OR turn north under First Ave terminating at the southwest corner of ST-PCV w/ L connection or even continuing to vicinity of the UN.

I could keep going but I'll stop...
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Last edited by Busy Bee; Nov 23, 2020 at 7:31 PM.
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  #1546  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2020, 3:11 PM
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I'm thinking maybe this Hoboken tunnel concept conversation ought to be moved to the NY transportation thread??

Mod?
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  #1547  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2020, 9:58 PM
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Getting back to the origin of this discussion, yesterday Cuomo disclosed a study indicating that the Hudson tubes could be repaired while in use, like the L train tunnels were repaired. From NY's standpoint, most of the benefits come from the repairs (by staving off catastrophe) and not from extra capacity. The ideal situation for NY, then, is to get the repairs done independently and let NJ and the Feds figure out how to pay for Gateway without NY's help.

https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...3ym-story.html

New Jersey leaders are outraged that New York doesn't want to subsidize their commutes...

Might be a moot point though if Biden orders DOT to release funding for full Gateway.
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  #1548  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2020, 12:10 AM
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^ I'm not sure I would describe it as NY subsidizing NJ commuters. That would be akin to a mall tenant being told it's not in their best interest to maintain or expand the mall parking lot. NY's economy benefits enormously by the influx into Penn from NJ, like that even needs to be said.
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  #1549  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2020, 5:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
^ I'm not sure I would describe it as NY subsidizing NJ commuters. That would be akin to a mall tenant being told it's not in their best interest to maintain or expand the mall parking lot. NY's economy benefits enormously by the influx into Penn from NJ, like that even needs to be said.
Sure but New York has multiple and competing priorities for its limited transit dollars. Second Ave, LGA AirTrain, ADA upgrades, CBTC rollout, etc.

For NJ and Amtrak, the Hudson tunnel situation outstrips everything else.
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  #1550  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2020, 3:06 PM
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Yeah the timing of this cannot be happenstance. Cuomo wants to at a minimum delay any major NY contribution for Gateway.
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