Third Harbour Crossing

[MolteN]

I laughed when I read the article they're considering of tearing down and building a new replacement for the Mackay, that billion dollars would be more useful to a third harbour crossing in the south end.

I believe they considered this back in 2008, after dredging a line on the harbour floor, build a six lane tunnel with four lanes of traffic and two bus lanes. It would connect the south end port to woodside highway 111. Made of pre-fabbed sections welded water-tight on the bottom and the water pumped out.

Build a ramp from Barrington or inglis street and Marginal road for the port trucks, and build a new highway overpass in woodside that becomes the tunnel entrance.

This would allow eastern Passage and Woodside to handle a larger population.

Estimated cost in 2008 was 1.4 billion so that's about 1.8 billion today with inflation

[Good Baklava]

Originally Posted by MolteN

I laughed when I read the article they're considering of tearing down and building a new replacement for the Mackay, that billion dollars would be more useful to a third harbour crossing in the south end.

From what I know the Mackay is in rough shape which is why a replacement is needed.

[atbw]

Originally Posted by Good Baklava

From what I know the Mackay is in rough shape which is why a replacement is needed.

Correct. It's either a massive recap project at ~$800M or a new bridge, with bus lanes, sidewalks, and bus lanes, for ~$1BN.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Plans for new MacKay Bridge spark renewed calls for Africville reparations

As Halifax Harbour Bridges looks at replacing the MacKay Bridge, a former resident of Africville says any plan going forward must include reparations for the destruction of the historic Black community.

Irvine Carvery lived in the community along the Bedford Basin when the bridge was first being built in the 1960s. Africville was eventually demolished and its residents were relocated to make room for the bridge.

There have long been calls for the land to be returned to former residents and descendents of the community, and for reparations to be paid.

"We should be receiving revenue from the bridge for the current bridge that is there, for all the years it's been there," Carvery said.

"That infrastructure has generated lots of wealth and yet nothing, nothing, not a penny has come back to the people of Africville, so any new development on Africville lands would absolutely have to include some form of reparations."

In 2010, former residents and their descendents received an apology and $3 million from the city, one hectare of land and a replica church, which is now a national historic site.

"I'm sitting here by the church and it just reopens all my memories of the struggle of the people of Africville, from the time we left to 2010 when we received the apology. It all just comes rushing back," Carvery said.

He hopes to see some kind of mixed-use housing development on the land in the next 10 years. He said this redevelopment plan is still very preliminary but could include a seniors' residence as well as affordable and market housing.

"The people of Africville would have first dibs, but then it would open up to everybody in the city to assist with the affordable housing problem that we have here," he said.

Carvery said there are about 12 hectares of undeveloped land on the site right now, and he believes a housing development and new bridge could co-exist.

MacDonald said if the plan for a replacement bridge moves ahead, it would likely be built in 2040, with construction beginning in about 10 years.

[someone123]

That area seems poorly used and in principle, why not let people move back there if they or their ancestors lived there before, they were forced off, and they want to go back?

In practice it is messy (the land plots are probably unclear, and I doubt there are clear owners alive today that each could be given back to) and it seems like the reparations payments like the $3M are often forgotten or these issues are never considered "closed". It does not seem to be correct to have a new wave of Africville reparations once per decade.

The Millbrook Turtle Grove question is somewhat similar (although my understanding is the explosion was responsible more so than anybody removing the population deliberately). Not sure what will happen there but there is a "happy" outcome that is not far fetched. Give the land back, let people do what they want with it within a rough planning framework that would be applied around the city.

[josh_cat_eyes]

I while ago I came up with a diagram for what an east end downtown expansion could look like if the container port were moved to the Darmouth side at the site of the former oil refiner and if a tunnel was built to a new road utilizing part of the rail cut before potentially crossing the Northwest Arm.

I also failed to put any rail transit in the diagram, but I did label the VIA rail corridor in blue. Brown are surface streets, beige are the underground tunnel ramps. The tunnel itself is indicated in a lavender color.
The new district would include a new CFL stadium as well as a new hockey arena. What are people thoughts?

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by josh_cat_eyes

I while ago I came up with a diagram for what an east end downtown expansion could look like if the container port were moved to the Darmouth side at the site of the former oil refiner and if a tunnel was built to a new road utilizing part of the rail cut before potentially crossing the Northwest Arm.

I also failed to put any rail transit in the diagram, but I did label the VIA rail corridor in blue. Brown are surface streets, beige are the underground tunnel ramps. The tunnel itself is indicated in a lavender color.
The new district would include a new CFL stadium as well as a new hockey arena. What are people thoughts?

Imaginative, interesting and well done. But I think it's an absolutely terrible location for a stadium and arena.

[Keith P.]

The location, while scenic, seems reminiscent of Candlestick Park in San Francisco, where it was always much colder and windier than the rest of the city due to the proximity to the ocean.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The location, while scenic, seems reminiscent of Candlestick Park in San Francisco, where it was always much colder and windier than the rest of the city due to the proximity to the ocean.

Yes. Exposure to the prevailing westerly wind across the harbor does not make for a salubrious spectator experience, as any parent who's sat through a seemingly endless kids' soccer game at Shannon Park on a cool, damp evening will surely know.

But that's definitely not the only reason not to put a stadium (or arena) there.

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

The weather is measurably warmer and less foggy further inland. If we're to move a container port to make room for a stadium I'd much rather see it happen at Fairview Cove. And with the old downtown nearly full, our future in terms of a skyline is likely to be the north and west areas of the peninsula. In terms of a third crossing, I'd like to see the Armdale roundabout re-worked to 'bridge' over the existing roundabout (overpass) from both Herringcove Rd. and St. Margret's Bay Rd. onto a widened Chebucto Rd. with no access down to Quinpool or Joe Howe until you reach Connaught Ave.

[josh_cat_eyes]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

Yes. Exposure to the prevailing westerly wind across the harbor does not make for a salubrious spectator experience, as any parent who's sat through a seemingly endless kids' soccer game at Shannon Park on a cool, damp evening will surely know.

But that's definitely not the only reason not to put a stadium (or arena) there.

I never even thought about the wind off the bay at this location. Fairview Cove would have been my second choice. Any relocation of the cargo terminals, in my opinion, should be to build a single terminal. The only problem with my proposed location would be, all the cargo traffic would now go straight through downtown Dartmouth.

I will agree it may not be the best location for the stadium, I think an arena here could be cool. You could have a whole mixed use arena district on the reclaimed land. If not here, time is running out to build one on the next best suitable site in the city, which is at the cogswell interchange redevelopment.

[Keith P.]

Imagine a beautiful bridge like this spanning our harbor, preferably in the south end:

https://youtu.be/7T0_mJGKz58?si=YSL8hO-1fnerct_2

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Imagine a beautiful bridge like this spanning our harbor, preferably in the south end:

https://youtu.be/7T0_mJGKz58?si=YSL8hO-1fnerct_2

It would be equally pleasing as a MacKay replacement.

[IanWatson]

I do love me a good cable-stayed bridge. If you're ever driving through New England, highly recommend taking a route that'll pass over the Penobscot Narrows Bridge

[OldDartmouthMark]

That's a nice looking bridge.

I'm wondering, though, aside from aesthetics, are there any practical advantages over a traditional suspension bridge? How do they compare cost-wise?

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

I do love me a good cable-stayed bridge. If you're ever driving through New England, highly recommend taking a route that'll pass over the Penobscot Narrows Bridge

Also in New England: the Zakim/Bunker Hill Bridge over the Charles in Boston - very striking, especially at night.

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

I do love me a good cable-stayed bridge. If you're ever driving through New England, highly recommend taking a route that'll pass over the Penobscot Narrows Bridge

And it even has an observatory. We checked it out a few years after it opened, when the old bridge still existed beside it.

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

A beautiful bridge for sure. Maybe one in miniature could be built over the northwest arm for AT? or perhaps as an LRT bridge? I hope for no third bridge crossing off of the peninsula for car traffic. I fear such talk might result in an under-built MacKay replacement.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Arrdeeharharharbour

A beautiful bridge for sure. Maybe one in miniature could be built over the northwest arm for AT? or perhaps as an LRT bridge? I hope for no third bridge crossing off of the peninsula for car traffic. I fear such talk might result in an under-built MacKay replacement.

There is no question that Halifax will need a third harbour crossing, hopefully sooner than later. Adding one in the south end will allow the Woodside area of Dartmouth to prosper and would hopefully connect to the Circ.

I am no engineer, but to answer Mark's question, I gather that the cable-stayed design allows the pylon tower itself to bear the load of the bridge deck with no need for large ground-based anchors as is the case for traditional suspension bridge cables. As I understand it, the cables are attached to the deck itself on either side of the pylon that they are draped over (for want of a better term).

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

There is no question that Halifax will need a third harbour crossing, hopefully sooner than later. Adding one in the south end will allow the Woodside area of Dartmouth to prosper and would hopefully connect to the Circ.

I am no engineer, but to answer Mark's question, I gather that the cable-stayed design allows the pylon tower itself to bear the load of the bridge deck with no need for large ground-based anchors as is the case for traditional suspension bridge cables. As I understand it, the cables are attached to the deck itself on either side of the pylon that they are draped over (for want of a better term).

Why? If we are to somehow put another 20k or even 50k folks in the south end will many of them need to go to Woodside? The 100 series highways leading out of town are in the other direction. Services that once were solely or mainly on the peninsula are now more decentralized, downtown office space is shrinking, and as the city 'boroughs' develop the need to leave ones home area is much decreased and will continue to decrease. I see the city growing its density in the north and west end of the peninsula where the MacKay already exists as well as off the peninsula. Our downtown waterfront and entertainment options are top notch and folk from off peninsula will continue to want to visit no doubt. Now if we were to redevelop blocks and blocks of south end housing into high density mid and high-rise buildings then I'd likely change my mind. Does anyone reading this want to see that happen? My current view of our future city has the south end stagnating into a happy but somewhat dull downtown adjacent burb. Downtown will continue to thrive and improve but the real excitement and future buildup of modern Halifax lies elsewhere.