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  #101  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2020, 7:47 PM
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the new alstom trains and busses in nice charge in 20 seconds at each stop, thats regular dwell time and thats pretty amazing. no more overhead wires, hot third rails or even tracks, its just a pad on the roadway.
These technologies are very fascinating but may not be appropriate for all cities. Anything installed underground may not be appropriate for cities with snow/ice, or flooding issues. Batteries too have issues maintaining a charge in cold temperatures.

The most tried and true method for electrification remains an overhead wire system... people will need to wrap their heads around this reality if we are ever going to wean our transportation system off of fossil fuels. I'd like to see an effort to focus on the aesthetics of those systems which are often coldly functional right now. Can they incorporate wooden poles, or more decorative elements, wrought iron, etc. What is the most minimal arrangement of powered and guy wires that is workable?
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  #102  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2020, 10:42 PM
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These technologies are very fascinating but may not be appropriate for all cities. Anything installed underground may not be appropriate for cities with snow/ice, or flooding issues. Batteries too have issues maintaining a charge in cold temperatures.

The most tried and true method for electrification remains an overhead wire system... people will need to wrap their heads around this reality if we are ever going to wean our transportation system off of fossil fuels. I'd like to see an effort to focus on the aesthetics of those systems which are often coldly functional right now. Can they incorporate wooden poles, or more decorative elements, wrought iron, etc. What is the most minimal arrangement of powered and guy wires that is workable?
In Austin specifically I wonder how much opposition there really would be. I mean the city is already a total rat's nest of overhead wire even in the $ neighborhoods. I honestly don't think anyone would notice. If there are complaints I'd expect them to be clearance based for trucks.
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  #103  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2022, 7:12 PM
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Escalating prices (and perhaps unrealistic initial cost estimates?) have nearly doubled the total cost for Project Connect causing planners to reconsider timelines and project features. Underground running may even be reconsidered.

https://youtu.be/wZczFKV_PJo
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  #104  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2022, 7:14 PM
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Double post.
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  #105  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2022, 7:27 PM
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  #106  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2022, 7:38 PM
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It's happening in LA and other places too but it sucks more for Austin because they haven't even started yet.
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  #107  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2022, 8:19 PM
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nothing that another decade and 9-figure dollars worth of "studies" can't resolve.

why build when we can just eternally plan?



america, fuck no!
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  #108  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2022, 8:27 PM
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This is a repeat of the 1970s, when inflation cause the projects funded by the UMTA in 1970 to be watered down (Baltimore light rail), abandoned mid-construction (Second Ave. Subway), or left on the drawing board.
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  #109  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2022, 8:28 PM
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nothing that another decade and 9-figure dollars worth of "studies" can't resolve.

why build when we can just eternally plan?
Consultants need to put food on the table too, right?
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  #110  
Old Posted Nov 4, 2022, 9:20 PM
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This is a repeat of the 1970s, when inflation cause the projects funded by the UMTA in 1970 to be watered down (Baltimore light rail), abandoned mid-construction (Second Ave. Subway), or left on the drawing board.
Just to nitpick but the SAS was put on ice because the city was in freefall both fiscally and civilly, not so much as aa result of inflation though I agree with the larger point you're making.
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  #111  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2022, 12:05 AM
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nothing that another decade and 9-figure dollars worth of "studies" can't resolve.

why build when we can just eternally plan?



america, fuck no!
Meanwhile in China....
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  #112  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2022, 6:13 AM
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Well that didn't take long and makes one wonder if this is money well spent.

For 30% more money Toronto is building a 650 km electrified suburban rail system of which 220km will have trains running every 8 minutes off-peak. It has made this possible by purchasing freight corridors from the freight companies and twinning track, upgrading and building new stations, and building overpasses.

US cities have proven time and again that "build it and they will come" doesn't work. Look at Dallas and a host of other cities that have seen ridership decline over the last decade while spending untold billions on new rail lines. The reason for these failures is always the same...........lousy frequency. Unless the trains come, at a MINIMUM, every 10 minutes off-peak then they have taken the rapid out of rapid transit. Equally important is the bus connections which also have to be very frequent to feed into the system. A train coming every 10 minutes is no good if your bus comes every 20.

So many US cities have grand schemes on how to spend their infrastructure money but don't provide the operational funds needed when the service actually starts.
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  #113  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2022, 6:35 AM
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Well that didn't take long and makes one wonder if this is money well spent.

For 30% more money Toronto is building a 650 km electrified suburban rail system of which 220km will have trains running every 8 minutes off-peak. It has made this possible by purchasing freight corridors from the freight companies and twinning track, upgrading and building new stations, and building overpasses.

US cities have proven time and again that "build it and they will come" doesn't work. Look at Dallas and a host of other cities that have seen ridership decline over the last decade while spending untold billions on new rail lines. The reason for these failures is always the same...........lousy frequency. Unless the trains come, at a MINIMUM, every 10 minutes off-peak then they have taken the rapid out of rapid transit. Equally important is the bus connections which also have to be very frequent to feed into the system. A train coming every 10 minutes is no good if your bus comes every 20.

So many US cities have grand schemes on how to spend their infrastructure money but don't provide the operational funds needed when the service actually starts.
Amen. USA transportation agencies are by and large, clueless
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  #114  
Old Posted Nov 5, 2022, 3:38 PM
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US cities have proven time and again that "build it and they will come" doesn't work. Look at Dallas and a host of other cities that have seen ridership decline over the last decade while spending untold billions on new rail lines. The reason for these failures is always the same...........lousy frequency. Unless the trains come, at a MINIMUM, every 10 minutes off-peak then they have taken the rapid out of rapid transit. Equally important is the bus connections which also have to be very frequent to feed into the system. A train coming every 10 minutes is no good if your bus comes every 20.

So many US cities have grand schemes on how to spend their infrastructure money but don't provide the operational funds needed when the service actually starts.
I partly agree, but I think that you have to consider the purpose. The overwhelming majority of new light rail built in the US is intended to serve commuters. If 80% of commuters ride during rush hours there’s not as much need to run frequent trains off-peak.

Where I do agree is that if the expectation is that more people give up their cars and become transit-dependent then 10-min off peak will be necessary and even more necessary will be more frequent buses. Buses should be the backbone of every transit agency building light rail, but we know that’s far from the case. Bus service is often limited and infrequent even during peak service.

I really think that the prevailing attitude in much of the US is that “buses are for poor people but maybe we can get non-poor people to drive to a train station for their daily commute.”
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  #115  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2022, 5:27 AM
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The reason for these failures is always the same...........lousy frequency.
It's bad station locations. Using abandoned railroad, canal, or even unbuilt expressway ROW's (Boston Orange Line) is the wrong strategy. Paralleling expressways is the wrong strategy.

Sections of lines that use this strategy can work, a little, in denser cities like Boston. But just compare the Alewife extension of the Red Line versus the two south branches - no comparison.
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  #116  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2022, 4:46 AM
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It's bad station locations. Using abandoned railroad, canal, or even unbuilt expressway ROW's (Boston Orange Line) is the wrong strategy. Paralleling expressways is the wrong strategy.

Sections of lines that use this strategy can work, a little, in denser cities like Boston. But just compare the Alewife extension of the Red Line versus the two south branches - no comparison.
i general, i agree with all of your points, but a strange counterpoint is the southside of chicago where the green and red lines of the L parallel each other roughly only a half mile away from each other.

the green line runs on a century+ old steel elevated structure through alleys in the tradtional way that L lines were built way back in the day.

the red line runs down the center median of the gigantic dan ryan expressway trench.


despite that, the south branch of the red line has much higher ridership than the south branch of the green line.

south branch red line 2019 average weekday ridership: 39,639

south branch green line 2019 average weekday ridership: 11,054


(i'm going back to 2019 avg. weekday ridership here to avoid any covid weirdness in the #s)
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Nov 9, 2022 at 5:03 AM.
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  #117  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2022, 4:59 PM
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Probably because the red line goes a lot deeper into the south side and reaches the less blighted parts, acts more like a commuter than inner-city transit. I don't think that means anything.

Highway trench rail is the absolute worst way to do transit. Completely antithetical to the whole concept of it. I'd rather have a good bus line. There is really no counter point.
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  #118  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2022, 5:09 PM
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i general, i agree with all of your points, but a strange counterpoint is the southside of chicago where the green and red lines of the L parallel each other roughly only a half mile away from each other.

the green line runs on a century+ old steel elevated structure through alleys in the tradtional way that L lines were built way back in the day.

the red line runs down the center median of the gigantic dan ryan expressway trench.


despite that, the south branch of the red line has much higher ridership than the south branch of the green line.

south branch red line 2019 average weekday ridership: 39,639

south branch green line 2019 average weekday ridership: 11,054


(i'm going back to 2019 avg. weekday ridership here to avoid any covid weirdness in the #s)
I'm not sure there's much meaning to be gleaned from that other than that Chicago is an exception everything ridership related. Those are both incomprehensibly low for metro lines in a major city (or non-major city for that matter). Perhaps the difference is just that the Red Line extends much further south or that it connects with more bus routes?
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  #119  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2022, 5:49 PM
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
These technologies are very fascinating but may not be appropriate for all cities. Anything installed underground may not be appropriate for cities with snow/ice, or flooding issues. Batteries too have issues maintaining a charge in cold temperatures.

The most tried and true method for electrification remains an overhead wire system... people will need to wrap their heads around this reality if we are ever going to wean our transportation system off of fossil fuels. I'd like to see an effort to focus on the aesthetics of those systems which are often coldly functional right now. Can they incorporate wooden poles, or more decorative elements, wrought iron, etc. What is the most minimal arrangement of powered and guy wires that is workable?
true, but it would seem to be fine for austin climate. weatherwise, they are blessed to be able to try just about anything.
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  #120  
Old Posted Nov 10, 2022, 8:15 PM
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Probably because the red line goes a lot deeper into the south side and reaches the less blighted parts.
ok then, let's just look at station boardings on the southside red and green lines through the section of town where their routes overlap, so that would be all the stops south of roosevelt down to 63rd. yes, the redline continues with 4 more stops down to 95th, but we won't count those here.

(using 2019 figures again to avoid any covid weirdness).

southside red line (chinatown thru 63rd) avg. weekday boardings: 17,400

southside green line avg. weekday boardings: 11,054

source: https://www.transitchicago.com/asset...hip_Report.pdf


so even when we disregard the more heavily used section of the redl ine on the far southside, we see that the red line's expressway trench ROW through the mid-southside is still more heavily used than the green line's legacy-style ROW through the same part of town.

that doesn't negate the fact that running rapid transit down expressway medians is still generally a bad ideal compared to other types of rapid transit ROWs (subway or elevated through the heart of urban neighborhoods), but i thought it was interesting to note nontheless because i can't think of another situation in the nation where a traditonal-style rapid transit ROW so very closely parallels an expressway median ROW through the same part of the city.
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