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  #161  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2019, 8:50 PM
Docere Docere is online now
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NYC is probably the only metro in the US where a majority of whites have roots in eastern and southern Europe.
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  #162  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2019, 9:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
German is the largest ancestry group in Chicago and they're really just a stream of "nonethnic white American." For all the puffery about Irish American "uniqueness" overall they probably have more in common with WASPs and people of German ancestry
my maternal side is all northside german.

my paternal side is all southside irish.

the truth is that both sides have been in chicago for so many freaking generations now that these ethnic labels are just that, labels. they don't have much real meaning in my life.

when people ask me about my ancestry i always say "50% german, 50% irish, and 100% chicagoan".


my wife's roots are all chicago italian (with bona fide mafia shit in there too!), and her family definitely more closely identifies with their "italian-ness" than any of my "german" or "irish" relatives do with our alleged european ancestries.

so yeah, "german" and "irish" in chicago is most often synonymous with "mainstream white amercian" these days.

"italian" is getting there too. my own kids will certainly not identify with being "italian" the same way that their maternal grandparents do.



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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
The heavily Polish neighborhoods and close-in suburbs are made up of more recent immigrants - not the "Bill Swerski superfans" types (who probably live in far-flung suburbia nowadays).
no, there are still PLENTY of super-fan types out in the cop and firemen bungalow belt areas on the NW and SW sides. when you get into more blue-collar/tradesmen lines of work you'll still see a lot of that. a good friend of mine works for the gas company and several times i've hung out with him and some of his coworkers drinking after work, and my god, the accents are pure raw chicago gold! i kinda wish i had one. i mean, i can fake it, but a fake is a fake.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Sep 16, 2019 at 9:33 PM.
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  #163  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2019, 9:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
my maternal side is all northside german.

my paternal side is all southside irish.

the truth is that both sides have been in chicago for so many freaking generations now that these ethnic labels are just that, labels. they don't have much real meaning in my life.

when people ask me about my ancestry i always say "50% german, 50% irish, 100% chicagoan"
Which kind of aligns with Crawford's point - Chicago is less "white ethnic" than NYC but more so than L.A.


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no, there are still PLENTY of super-fan types out in the cop and firemen bungalow belt areas on the NW and SW sides. when you get into more blue-collar/tradesmen lines of work you'll still see a lot of that. a good friend of mine works for the gas company and several times i've hung out with him and some of his coworkers drinking after work, and my god, the accents are pure raw chicago gold! i kinda wish i had one, but a fake is a fake.
From what I can tell there's really only two white working class concentrations left in Chicago - the far NW (where there are a lot of Polish immigrants) and the cop neighborhoods around Beverley/Mount Greenwood in the SW.
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  #164  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2019, 9:29 PM
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From what I can tell there's really only two white working class concentrations left in Chicago - the far NW (where there are a lot of Polish immigrants) and the cop neighborhoods around Beverley/Mount Greenwood in the SW.
the NW side (jeff, edison, norwood, portage, etc.) and beverly/mount greenwood are not working class. cops/firemen/teachers/city workers/contractors/tradesmen for sure, but much more middle class than working class.

still, lots of those guys (particularly tradesmen) sound like the superfans, even if their closest relative actually from europe was more than 3 generations ago.
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  #165  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2019, 9:45 PM
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It’s not segregation they’re championing against. [B]It’s the idea that there’s something wrong when they walk into a neighborhood that's 70% latino. It’s these neighborhoods that they have in mind. Because they feel unsafe and uncomfortable accidentally wandering into these parts of the city because for one small moment, they're forced to actually think about what it’s like for whites to be a minority and it’s scary for them.
Or getting bent all out of shape because they hear another language other than English being spoken.

A year or two ago, there was a local news story here in LA, with footage caught on phone cam, about an old lady telling a mother and her adult son who were speaking Spanish to each other at a fast-food restaurant that "this is AMERICA, you're supposed to be speaking English!" And they were like "We do speak English." The mother was all upset too, telling the lady in a very thick accent, that she does speak English. I mean come on, that old lady wasn't part of the conversation, so why should she care what language another person is speaking? It upset me too, because my own parents don't speak English to each other when they're out and about; I would hate it if some random stranger went up to them and told them that 'this is AMERICA, you need to speak English.' I would want to say "Well this is LA. Here's some English: Fuck off. Is that better for you now?"
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  #166  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2019, 9:46 PM
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^^ That was my assumption going out there for the first time. Both of your posts are what I had expected. He was in entertainment sooooo ... maybe it kinda-sorta exists in that industry in his head. Either way. I thought LA was wonderful.
Just out of curiosity, how long ago was this, and how old was he at the time? I would think that being gay in LA within the last... gosh, like 20 or 30 years now... hell, even 40 or 45 years... wouldn't be a big deal.

But I guess the entertainment industry is an odd duck. I remember the big stink when that actress from "Married With Children" came out. And of course the whole Ellen thing. And this was in the early and late 90s respectively.
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  #167  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2019, 9:46 PM
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There's still a sizeable polish population around midway as well and they tend to be less cop/firemen types but more tradesmen/construction types and mixed between more recent arrivals and older generations.
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  #168  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2019, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Which kind of aligns with Crawford's point - Chicago is less "white ethnic" than NYC but more so than L.A.
I'd dispute this, although it's not a major point of contention with me either.

Are you basing your statement off of numbers (demographics) or perception? When I think of "white ethnics" in Chicago, I think "extremely Polish, legacy Irish Catholic (but more assimilated than Boston/Philly/NYC), relatively Italian, and a lot of sizable (though not large) eastern/southeastern European ancestries," the last group representing a drop in the bucket for such a large metro. Otherwise, German is far and away the largest ancestry, and there's a larger share of Dutch and Nordic ancestry compared to LA.

LA's got the Jewish/Armenian/Persian factor, and I'd say those cultures that are overtly "ethnic" as can be. If LA County (population 10.1 million) is about 6% Jewish, that means Jews account for 20-25% of the white population. And I'd think you'd be surprised at how many of LA's Armenians have held on to their ancestry (meaning they strongly identify as culturally "Armenian" and speak the language). The same goes for the Persian community. How many Chicagoans still speak Czech, Ukrainian, Croatian, etc?
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  #169  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 2:40 AM
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Originally Posted by sopas ej View Post
Or getting bent all out of shape because they hear another language other than English being spoken.

A year or two ago, there was a local news story here in LA, with footage caught on phone cam, about an old lady telling a mother and her adult son who were speaking Spanish to each other at a fast-food restaurant that "this is AMERICA, you're supposed to be speaking English!" And they were like "We do speak English." The mother was all upset too, telling the lady in a very thick accent, that she does speak English. I mean come on, that old lady wasn't part of the conversation, so why should she care what language another person is speaking? It upset me too, because my own parents don't speak English to each other when they're out and about; I would hate it if some random stranger went up to them and told them that 'this is AMERICA, you need to speak English.' I would want to say "Well this is LA. Here's some English: Fuck off. Is that better for you now?"
I don't know if that was a local news story, pretty sure I heard about that too. And the fact that some dude in Virginia heard about it hopefully means its not common.
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  #170  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
my wife's roots are all chicago italian (with bona fide mafia shit in there too!), and her family definitely more closely identifies with their "italian-ness" than any of my "german" or "irish" relatives do with our alleged european ancestries.
Funny and interesting... We've had lots of Italian immigrants because of Mussolini in my country too, and stereotype has it that Italian male old farts were sort of sectarian and superstitious.
Like when you weren't one of their relatives, they would regard you as a stranger and a rival, which involves a whole load of distrust.
If you had a relationship with one of their daughters, you'd better be good and faithful or they would ruin your life. Lol.

Notice that the older French weren't friendly to them either anyway. They were called "Macaroni", a racist and disparaging term, because many had to migrate to France and they were seen as an invasive people (pretty much like the Algerians today).

That was long ago. France and Italy are much the same anyway. Mostly Roman and Catholic and stuff, so younger generations don't care anymore.
The Italian descendants didn't really struggle too much to find success in France's society.
A lot of today's French elite has some more or less ancient Italian background.

It's only been slightly harder for those from Southern Italian provinces, because they are poorer than those from the North who're more used to an advanced economy.
Northern Italy is actually rich. Issues go to the South.
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  #171  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 1:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
the NW side (jeff, edison, norwood, portage, etc.) and beverly/mount greenwood are not working class. cops/firemen/teachers/city workers/contractors/tradesmen for sure, but much more middle class than working class.

still, lots of those guys (particularly tradesmen) sound like the superfans, even if their closest relative actually from europe was more than 3 generations ago.
the southwest side of st. louis city is like this, but has become more yoga mom over the past 10 years. i remember over 10 years ago getting buzzed into a firefighter bar, the walls completely filled with photographs, and the bartender was drunk with a bunch of whatever the st. louis version is of a superfan (think harry caray i guess). i looked back at the bar and there was a colt .45 sitting there...old school white st. louis city siege mentality...
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  #172  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 4:14 PM
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I'd dispute this, although it's not a major point of contention with me either.

Are you basing your statement off of numbers (demographics) or perception? When I think of "white ethnics" in Chicago, I think "extremely Polish, legacy Irish Catholic (but more assimilated than Boston/Philly/NYC), relatively Italian, and a lot of sizable (though not large) eastern/southeastern European ancestries," the last group representing a drop in the bucket for such a large metro. Otherwise, German is far and away the largest ancestry, and there's a larger share of Dutch and Nordic ancestry compared to LA.

LA's got the Jewish/Armenian/Persian factor, and I'd say those cultures that are overtly "ethnic" as can be. If LA County (population 10.1 million) is about 6% Jewish, that means Jews account for 20-25% of the white population. And I'd think you'd be surprised at how many of LA's Armenians have held on to their ancestry (meaning they strongly identify as culturally "Armenian" and speak the language). The same goes for the Persian community. How many Chicagoans still speak Czech, Ukrainian, Croatian, etc?
Anecdotally, quite a few. Even my Filipino girlfriend can speak a little Polish having grown up near Belmont/Central.

Here is the breakdown of LA vs. Chicago. I'm unsure if this is the percentage of the population that ONLY speak these languages, or ALSO speaks these languages, but I don't htink it counts for 2nd/3rd generations who can still speak the language so take with a grain of salt:

LA: https://embed.datausa.io/profile/geo...ics/languages/
Chicago: https://embed.datausa.io/profile/geo...ics/languages/

From those numbers, "white ethnic" language speaking populations look pretty similar.
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  #173  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 4:25 PM
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Armenian and Persian and Sephardic Jews aren't white ethnics. Yeah, I get they're white per Census, but that isn't what we're talking about. This is more about European-descended ethnics with some remaining cultural heritage.
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  #174  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 4:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Armenian and Persian and Sephardic Jews aren't white ethnics. Yeah, I get they're white per Census, but that isn't what we're talking about. This is more about European-descended ethnics with some remaining cultural heritage.
Yes I wouldn't think so either. Of course it's hard when discussing this because it can be subjective...

But using simply European-centric languages (and omitting Spanish simply because of the large Mexican/Central/South American populations that would not identify themselves as "white ethnic"), Chicago actually has a higher percentage of white ethnic language speakers than LA:



*https://embed.datausa.io/profile/geo...ics/languages/
**https://embed.datausa.io/profile/geo...ics/languages/
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  #175  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 4:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Handro View Post
But using simply European-centric languages (and omitting Spanish simply because of the large Mexican/Central/South American populations that would not identify themselves as "white ethnic"), Chicago actually has a higher percentage of white ethnic language speakers than LA:
That would be expected. Chicago has far more European immigrants than LA. But the posted data appears to be city proper only.
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  #176  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 5:08 PM
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NW Chicago has a good sized European-born population:

Born in Europe

O'Hare 27%
Norridge 26.9%
Norwood Park 17.4%
Jefferson Park 13.9%
Portage Park 12.8%
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  #177  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 5:17 PM
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Armenian and Persian and Sephardic Jews aren't white ethnics. Yeah, I get they're white per Census, but that isn't what we're talking about. This is more about European-descended ethnics with some remaining cultural heritage.
But Ashkenazi Jews are?

Some people don't consider Jews to be white; there was a time in the US when Italians weren't considered white; Poles and Irish Catholics weren't considered "white," either.

I think this is where old cultural stereotypes are falling into play, and some people are still buying into them. It seems that the only way to be "white," is to be from Europe, even though historically, there were caucasians (outdated term, I know) in areas outside of Europe.

Armenians have a long history in Los Angeles. Many of them came here after the genocide of 1915-17. They are indeed part of the fabric of LA.

Armenian family in Los Angeles, circa 1922:

Los Angeles Public Library

Armenian family in Los Angeles, circa 1926:

Los Angeles Public Library
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  #178  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 5:26 PM
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this is the point I was making in the other thread about why Chicago typically resists the "Midwestern" label, because of what most users of the label mean by it, but I digress
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  #179  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 5:43 PM
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this is the point I was making in the other thread about why Chicago typically resists the "Midwestern" label, because of what most users of the label mean by it, but I digress
That doesn't really make sense. Midwestern cities tend to have a higher proportion of European-descended immigrants. Cities like Cleveland, Detroit, Cincy have European languages highly ranked. Granted, this is largely because these areas have few(er) immigrants from Asia/Latin America so legacy immigrants are more prominent.
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  #180  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 6:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
That doesn't really make sense. Midwestern cities tend to have a higher proportion of European-descended immigrants. Cities like Cleveland, Detroit, Cincy have European languages highly ranked. Granted, this is largely because these areas have few(er) immigrants from Asia/Latin America so legacy immigrants are more prominent.
right. It's only one part of the puzzle in Chicago. Pretty sure there aren't 600,000 Spanish-speakers in Cincinnati
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