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  #201  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 9:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
we can agree to disagree, but i will always bristle whenever i hear people claim that chicago is not midwest.

chicago is peak midwest. the capital of the midwest. the midwest at both its best and worst. chicago is of, by, and for the midwest.

please read Nature's Metropolis.
my favorite american urban history book of all time. in fact, i should re-read it for the 3rd time. the thoroughness of the greater context of chicago within the u.s., and more specifically the geography, economics, and history of the midwest is spectacular. it pokes around the edges of st. louis of course, you can see the historical/geographical outline of that city just by how thorough the book is regarding chicago, and the greater context of that city within the midwest.
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  #202  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 10:05 PM
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i guess whatever it is that some people think makes chicago not midwestern stems from a confusion regarding the same batch of contemporary economic/cultural distortions that apply to all highly global and globally connected places, with varying effects.
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  #203  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by sopas ej View Post
Do they really? Most of the Armenians I know are from/their families are from the Levant (mainly Lebanon and Syria) and know some Arabic. I actually knew very few Armenians from the former Soviet Armenia. There are also Armenians from Iran... well and of course there's a whole diaspora of them.
As an Armenian, i can chime in here. There are 3 distinct groups of Armenians in the diaspora here in the LA area. Armenians from Armenia and Russia, Armenians from Iran and Armenians from the Levant area... You'll see the Armenians from Iran mostly in Glendale, Burbank and the foothills, Armenians from Russia and Armenian in the Hollywoods (North, East and Hollywood Proper) and Armenians from the Levant regions in Pasadena and the valley... This is in general terms of course. Also, id dispute that 70% of Armenians speak Russian or understand it. Much less than that
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  #204  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 10:42 PM
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So... there are more French, German, Scandinavian, Russian and Hebrew speakers in LA while Chicago has more Greek, Polish, Serbo-Croatian and Other Slavic speakers. It's about what I expected. But it's all a bit too arbitrary in who you include in your "white ethnic" category. "Other Indo-European" can include people from Pakistan and Afghanistan. Yet, you don't count Armenians. I also think the numbers would shift a quite a bit if we went by MSA instead. Anyway, love those charts. That right there is why I love American cities.
It’s clear that “ethnic white” was always meant to mean Irish Catholic, Italian, Greek, Hungarian, Albanian, and Slavic. In which case, there’s really nothing to debate about. But the inclusion of Jews really muddies the water since Ashkenazi Jews don’t identify with any particular European ethnicity (e.g. Russian, Polish) and view Israel as their motherland. If you don’t include Jews, then you can’t include Israelis/Hebrew speakers. And if you do, there’s no reason to exclude Armenians and Persians.
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  #205  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 11:01 PM
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I’d really love to see the number of Armenian, Persian, Russian, Hebrew, and Yiddish speakers with the addition of Glendale, Burbank, Pasadena, West Hollywood, Beverly Hills, and Calabasas. I bet the number of Armenian speakers in Glendale is like half of LA city’s total. Of all the Armenians I’ve come across here in LA, the vast majority of them were proud full-Armenians and could speak the language.
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  #206  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2019, 2:23 AM
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Chicago is every bit as Midwestern as NYC is Northeastern.
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  #207  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2019, 2:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Chicago is every bit as Midwestern as NYC is Northeastern.
Yep.

Succinct and truthful.
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  #208  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2019, 3:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Hillary Clinton also carried the Cleveland (56%) and Detroit (53%) metros as well. Most of the difference between the vote in metro Chicago and these two is that is less NHW and the white population tilts more toward the professional class side.

Chicago dominates Illinois more than any other cities dominate their states in terms of population numbers.

The state has been reliably Democratic since 1992 and super-Democratic since 2008 (when the suburban "collar counties" stopped voting Republican).
New York? I think NYC is like 50% of the state's population.

EDIT: too easy to verify to not include hard numbers:

NYC - NY population: 44%
Chi - IL population: 21%

And for reference, some other major cities - state pops:

Bos - Mass: 10%
Den - Colorado: 11%
Sea - Wash: 10%
ATL - GA: 5%

Quote:
Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Chicago is every bit as Midwestern as NYC is Northeastern.
Well put.
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  #209  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2019, 3:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Handro View Post
New York? I think NYC is like 50% of the state's population.

EDIT: too easy to verify to not include hard numbers:

NYC - NY population: 44%
Chi - IL population: 21%

And for reference, some other major cities - state pops:

Bos - Mass: 10%
Den - Colorado: 11%
Sea - Wash: 10%
ATL - GA: 5%



Well put.
NYC is almost half of NYS's population, but I think Chicago Metro still has a much larger share of Illinois than NYC area counties do of NYS. But yeah, NYC is probably the only major city in the country that accounts for nearly half of the population of the state where it's located.
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  #210  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2019, 3:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Handro View Post
NYC - NY population: 44%
Chi - IL population: 21%
Obviously comparing city propers makes no sense. "Chicago" is Chicagoland, which absolutely dominates Illinois.

Most of NYC suburbia is in other states, so it could be argued that NYC most dominates NJ, moreso than NY (ie a higher share of NJ is in NY metro than NY).
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  #211  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2019, 3:38 PM
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Docere was almost certainly talking about metro area, not city proper.

the illinois counties of chicago's metro area constituted 67.8% of illinois' total population as of the 2010 census.

i don't know how the new york counties of NYC's metro area stack up against the state's overall population.


that said, illinois isn't #1 in this measure. rhode island is the most dominated because the whole damn state is included in providence's metro area.

massachussets/boston might be above illinois too, along with hawaii/honolulu.

but illinois might be the only geographically "large" state to have more than 2/3 of it's population in a single metro area.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Sep 18, 2019 at 3:58 PM.
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  #212  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2019, 3:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Obviously comparing city propers makes no sense. "Chicago" is Chicagoland, which absolutely dominates Illinois.

Most of NYC suburbia is in other states, so it could be argued that NYC most dominates NJ, moreso than NY (ie a higher share of NJ is in NY metro than NY).
Chicago Metro (without removing IN counties) - IL: 75%
NYC + (only) LI - NY: 83%

Including other metro NY counties would probably push it upwards of 90% of the state pop?
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  #213  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2019, 3:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Handro View Post
Chicago Metro (without removing IN counties) - IL: 75%
NYC + (only) LI - NY: 83%
This makes no sense. NYC has around 8.4 million residents. LI has around 2.9 million residents. NY State has around 19.6 residents.

The overall share of NY State population in NY metro is probably roughly comparable, or a tad lower, than Illinois population in Chicagoland. Westchester has just under 1 million, and the other counties north of the Bronx have another 800k or so.

But that wasn't my point. You can't determine share by city proper. Places like MA and GA are absolutely dominated by cities with small city proper populations. MA is basically Boston and then second home area/college towns for New Yorkers (western MA). GA has this gigantic expanding blob of sprawl called Atlanta, even if over 90% of the sprawl isn't in the city proper.
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  #214  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2019, 3:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Handro View Post
Chicago Metro (without removing IN counties) - IL: 75%
NYC + (only) LI - NY: 83%

Including other metro NY counties would probably push it upwards of 90% of the state pop?
your math makes no sense.

the 12 new york state counties of NYC's metro area constitute 68.0% of new york state's population.

that's nearly identical to metro chicago's 67.8% share of illinois.
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  #215  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2019, 3:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
This makes no sense. NYC has around 8.4 million residents. LI has around 2.9 million residents. NY State has around 19.6 residents.

The overall share of NY State population in NY metro is probably roughly comparable, or a tad lower, than Illinois population in Chicagoland. Westchester has around 1 million, and the other counties north of the Bronx have another 800k or so.

But that wasn't my point. You can't determine share by city proper. Places like MA and GA are absolutely dominated by cities with small city proper populations. MA is basically Boston and then second home area/college towns for New Yorkers (western MA). GA has this gigantic expanding blob of sprawl called Atlanta, even if over 90% of the sprawl isn't in the city proper.
Ah, I must have gotten the wrong numbers for LI population--it was upwards of 7M according to wiki.

Regardless, NY Metro (within NY state) and Chicago Metro (within IL, but probably even including IN population) roughly dominate the same population share of their respective states.

Secondly, you can definitely use city proper in this (admittedly silly) exercise, because we're talking "state domination" in terms of political and social sensibilities. There are vast swaths of any metro area (especially less dense ones) that absolutely would not share the same urban perspectives as residents in the cities proper.

Thirdly, my original point that "no city dominates their respective state like Chicago" is incorrect, since NYC certainly does, still stands -- with or without the faulty number I grabbed from wikipedia.
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  #216  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2019, 3:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Handro View Post
Ah, I must have gotten the wrong numbers for LI population--it was upwards of 7M according to wiki.
Technically, LI does have well over 7 million, due to Brooklyn and Queens. But no one considers them to be LI, at least not since the 19th century.
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  #217  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2019, 4:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Handro View Post
Chicago Metro (without removing IN counties) - IL: 75%
NYC + (only) LI - NY: 83%

Including other metro NY counties would probably push it upwards of 90% of the state pop?
Using the 5 boroughs + Nassau and Suffolk (Long Island) + Westchester, Rockland, and Orange (northern NY counties), it totals about 67% of NYS population (those are core MSA counties). Adding CSA counties (Dutchess, Putnam, Ulster) pushes it up to 69%.
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  #218  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2019, 4:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
your math makes no sense.

the 12 new york state counties of NYC's metro area constitute 68.0% of new york state's population.

that's nearly identical to metro chicago's 67.8% share of illinois.
Hmm, I thought Chicagoland would make up more of Illinois. That's interesting.
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  #219  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2019, 4:06 PM
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Hmm, I thought Chicagoland would make up more of Illinois. That's interesting.
I thought more than NY and Chicago would take up large shares of their states' populations--Denver, Seattle, Georgia, etc.
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  #220  
Old Posted Sep 18, 2019, 6:49 PM
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Las Vegas has the highest share of state population at >70%
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