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  #181  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 6:41 PM
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^ other midwest cities have spanish speakers, and euro-immigrants, and asian americans, etc. as well. that doesn't make them "not midwestern".

chicago will obviously have more because of its much greater size, but similarly, that still doesn't make chicago "not midwestern".

if stupid people want to use the word "midwestern" in stupid ways, that's on them, not us. we know who we are.
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  #182  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 6:50 PM
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But Ashkenazi Jews are?
I really don’t see how they’re any “whiter” than Armenians when they have Semitic origins, while Armenians practice Christianity. Armenian and Persian are also Indo-European languages. I suppose when Jews were forced to flee to Europe they mixed with “European” tribes, hence their lighter phenetics. But “Jewish” is kind of an all-encompassing cultural identity that generally doesn’t distinguish between ethnicity or geography. It’s been proven than a Polish Jew is more likely to share more genetic similarities with, say, a Russian Jew than a Polish Catholic.
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  #183  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 7:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
^ other midwest cities have spanish speakers, and euro-immigrants, and asian americans, etc. as well. that doesn't make them "not midwestern".

chicago will obviously have more because of its much greater size, but similarly, that still doesn't make chicago "not midwestern".

if stupid people want to use the word "midwestern" in stupid ways, that's on them, not us. we know who we are.

well we can agree to disagree on part of it I suppose. That volume makes a difference.

I'm sure there are tons of Midwestern cities with an openly gay, black, female mayor; that are 2/3 minority; have (Jan. 1) legal pot; have one of the nation's fast-growing tech sectors...

anyway, I guess we can continue comparing the fine points of how Chicago's diversity rivals Los Angeles, a city that reminds everyone of an Indianapolis By the Sea.
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  #184  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 7:08 PM
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Yes I wouldn't think so either. Of course it's hard when discussing this because it can be subjective...

But using simply European-centric languages (and omitting Spanish simply because of the large Mexican/Central/South American populations that would not identify themselves as "white ethnic"), Chicago actually has a higher percentage of white ethnic language speakers than LA:



*https://embed.datausa.io/profile/geo...ics/languages/
**https://embed.datausa.io/profile/geo...ics/languages/
Armenian and Persian are Indo-European languages. But you’re willing to include Hebrew (which isn’t mutually intelligible with Yiddish)?

That there are more Germanic speakers in LA percentage-wise is impressive and surprising. So is the significantly larger share of Russian speakers... and that’s without West Hollywood and Beverly Hills.
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  #185  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 7:17 PM
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Armenian and Persian are Indo-European languages.

That there are more Germanic speakers in LA percentage-wise is impressive and surprising. So is the significantly larger share of Russian speakers... and that’s without West Hollywood and Beverly Hills.
And Hungarian and Hebrew are not Indo-European languages (and Hindi, Urdu and Gujarati are also Indo-European languages, but I guess they're not natively spoken by "whites").

But Handro was talking about "European-centric" languages, not Indo-European languages---but then I would think that Hebrew is not a "European-centric" language.
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  #186  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 7:34 PM
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Ok, remove those European languages and the point that Los Angeles does not have a larger prevalence of "white ethnics" than Chicago still stands.

LA: 2.6%
Chicago: 4.2%
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  #187  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 7:36 PM
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What about, say, Russian-speaking Armenian-Russians? They would accounted for in that chart, even though they’re ethnically Armenian.

And what’s “European-centric” anyway? The majority of Armenians speak Russian as a second language, while 70% have a basic understanding of it.
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  #188  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 7:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Quixote View Post
What about, say, Russian-speaking Armenian-Russians? They would accounted for in that chart, even though they’re ethnically Armenian.

And what’s “European-centric” anyway? The majority of Armenians speak Russian as a second language, while 70% have a basic understanding of it.
Do they really? Most of the Armenians I know are from/their families are from the Levant (mainly Lebanon and Syria) and know some Arabic. I actually knew very few Armenians from the former Soviet Armenia. There are also Armenians from Iran... well and of course there's a whole diaspora of them.
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  #189  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 7:49 PM
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Ok, remove those European languages and the point that Los Angeles does not have a larger prevalence of "white ethnics" than Chicago still stands.

LA: 2.6%
Chicago: 4.2%
Why would Hungary not be included when it’s firmly a European country, and therefore “white”?

Why would Russian/Polish/Yiddish-speaking Ashkenazi Jews count when they have “Middle Eastern” origins (and the features to prove it), while Jews who just so happen to speak Persian don’t? And what about the fact that the majority of Israelites are Ashkenazi Jews who now speak Hebrew?
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  #190  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 7:53 PM
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Originally Posted by sopas ej View Post
Do they really? Most of the Armenians I know are from/their families are from the Levant (mainly Lebanon and Syria) and know some Arabic. I actually knew very few Armenians from the former Soviet Armenia. There are also Armenians from Iran... well and of course there's a whole diaspora of them.
Per Google.

There’s also a large Armenian population in Russia. If Russian is their native tongue, do they count?

I don’t know how many of LA’s Armenians are actually of Russian national origin, but that’s not really the point.
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  #191  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 7:55 PM
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well we can agree to disagree on part of it I suppose.
we can agree to disagree, but i will always bristle whenever i hear people claim that chicago is not midwest.

chicago is peak midwest. the capital of the midwest. the midwest at both its best and worst. chicago is of, by, and for the midwest.

please read Nature's Metropolis.
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  #192  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 8:05 PM
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I don't get what we are debating.

Midwest is nothing more than a geographical term, in which Chicago is central.

Sure, some fuckfaces out there decided to turn this term into something pejorative, but that's because they are losers anyhow.

I concede that because of the fickle-minded nature of our society, instead of fighting it we should just rebrand the upper midwest as the "Great Lakes region" and I will keep arguing that, but nobody will listen....
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  #193  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 8:11 PM
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we should just rebrand the upper midwest as the "Great Lakes region" and I will keep arguing that, but nobody will listen....
chicago can be both, forever graced by its location where the prairie and the inland seas meet.

"Queen City of the Great Lakes"

"Capital of the Midwest"
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  #194  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 8:29 PM
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well we can agree to disagree on part of it I suppose. That volume makes a difference.

I'm sure there are tons of Midwestern cities with an openly gay, black, female mayor; that are 2/3 minority; have (Jan. 1) legal pot; have one of the nation's fast-growing tech sectors...

anyway, I guess we can continue comparing the fine points of how Chicago's diversity rivals Los Angeles, a city that reminds everyone of an Indianapolis By the Sea.
lol what? Can't tell if you're serious here.

As to your points about Chicago not being the Midwest, I think that's nothing more than your own insecurities coming through. You don't want to be associated with white bread flyover country, and a lot of people think that is what the entire Midwest is. Obviously, this isn't true. There are lots of different people and cultures and cities and points of interest all throughout the Midwest. Chicago is the biggest city in the region, and it's the most diverse, but that doesn't mean it's the only place in the midwest that is urban, cultured, or diverse. Chicago is Midwest through and through, and not even for reasons limited to its geographical location. Totally different feel than the big cities on the west or east coasts (or south) and distinctly midwestern. If that makes you feel uneasy, that's on you.
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  #195  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 8:38 PM
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The midwest used to be "the west"

Then we moved west, and it became "east" to the real west.

It's actually further east than west on a map of America, but since the world "mid-east" already implies someplace far, far away, midwest is the term we are stuck with.

Other options:

Great Lakes region (for a portion of the midwest)
The Great North (again for a portion)
The Grand North
Central region
Upper coast
Middle coast
Douche-free Land?
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  #196  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 8:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Handro View Post
Yes I wouldn't think so either. Of course it's hard when discussing this because it can be subjective...

But using simply European-centric languages (and omitting Spanish simply because of the large Mexican/Central/South American populations that would not identify themselves as "white ethnic"), Chicago actually has a higher percentage of white ethnic language speakers than LA:



*https://embed.datausa.io/profile/geo...ics/languages/
**https://embed.datausa.io/profile/geo...ics/languages/
So... there are more French, German, Scandinavian, Russian and Hebrew speakers in LA while Chicago has more Greek, Polish, Serbo-Croatian and Other Slavic speakers. It's about what I expected. But it's all a bit too arbitrary in who you include in your "white ethnic" category. "Other Indo-European" can include people from Pakistan and Afghanistan. Yet, you don't count Armenians. I also think the numbers would shift a quite a bit if we went by MSA instead. Anyway, love those charts. That right there is why I love American cities.
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  #197  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 8:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the urban politician View Post
The midwest used to be "the west"

Then we moved west, and it became "east" to the real west.

It's actually further east than west on a map of America, but since the world "mid-east" already implies someplace far, far away, midwest is the term we are stuck with.

Other options:

Great Lakes region (for a portion of the midwest)
The Great North (again for a portion)
The Grand North
Central region
Upper coast
Middle coast
Douche-free Land?
Probably Great Lakes region for the parts bordering it and Great Plains for the rest that includes the Dakotas, Iowa, etc.

Honestly, Midwest is a great term on its own and I have no negativity concerning it.
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  #198  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 9:06 PM
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Originally Posted by edale View Post
lol what? Can't tell if you're serious here.

As to your points about Chicago not being the Midwest, I think that's nothing more than your own insecurities coming through. You don't want to be associated with white bread flyover country, and a lot of people think that is what the entire Midwest is. Obviously, this isn't true. There are lots of different people and cultures and cities and points of interest all throughout the Midwest. Chicago is the biggest city in the region, and it's the most diverse, but that doesn't mean it's the only place in the midwest that is urban, cultured, or diverse. Chicago is Midwest through and through, and not even for reasons limited to its geographical location. Totally different feel than the big cities on the west or east coasts (or south) and distinctly midwestern. If that makes you feel uneasy, that's on you.

No, I am not being serious. I was poking fun at this argument. Chicago is in the Midwest but not necessarily of it, at least in 2019 in many people's experience. This discussion is happening in a thread where we are wondering whether Chicago is more or less liberal than NYC or LA. Chicago is surrounded by a nearly unbroken sea of Red America for hundreds of miles in many directions. Even Wisconsin voted Trump.

Nothing about the argument makes me feel uneasy. I was just making a point that you kind of seized on there, which would be that no, Chicago doesn't belong in many people's lumped view of white flyover America. That's all. Most of the time the exception is made these days in the media.

and my family is from Philly, my first birthday was in Thailand and I am much more likely to be in NY, LA or Miami than in Iowa, which to me felt like the moon. Sorry!

Milwaukee is nice
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  #199  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 9:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maru2501 View Post
Chicago is in the Midwest but not necessarily of it.
disagree.




Quote:
Originally Posted by maru2501 View Post
This discussion is happening in a thread where we are wondering whether Chicago is more or less liberal than NYC or LA.
this thread was started on a very stupid premise because none of these three cities are anywhere close to conservative. it's a hair splitting exercise, which is typically a waste of time.




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Originally Posted by maru2501 View Post
Chicago is surrounded by a nearly unbroken sea of Red America for hundreds of miles in many directions. Even Wisconsin voted Trump.
most major cities are blue islands in seas of red. detroit, milwaukee, minneapolis, st. louis are all the same. the only difference is that chicago is so freaking huge that it can single-handedly pull its entire red-ass state across the blue finish line by itself. no other midwest state is so unipolarly dominated by one city the way that illinois is by chicago.




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Originally Posted by maru2501 View Post
Iowa, which to me felt like the moon.
you don't have to go all the way out to iowa to visit the moon.

this is a mere 35 miles from the loop.




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Originally Posted by maru2501 View Post
Milwaukee is nice
alright, we finally agree on something!
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Sep 17, 2019 at 9:58 PM.
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  #200  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2019, 9:27 PM
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Hillary Clinton also carried the Cleveland (56%) and Detroit (53%) metros as well. Most of the difference between the vote in metro Chicago and these two is that is less NHW and the white population tilts more toward the professional class side.

Chicago dominates Illinois more than any other cities dominate their states in terms of population numbers.

The state has been reliably Democratic since 1992 and super-Democratic since 2008 (when the suburban "collar counties" stopped voting Republican).
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