Halifax Stadium Discussion

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by q12

Are you Bruce Devenne in Disguise?


Is this your site? http://halifaxpolitics.ca/

I am not Bruce bloody Devenne, and I think it is sad that people who actually can add up a column of numbers are compared to contrarians like him.

I'd love to see a stadium that we could afford.

That is my site.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Federal money is incredible, its like having everybody else in Canada pay for something.

We should get everything we ask for, look at all the money that gets spent in Ottawa.

[wespidel]

People in Halifax who are CFL fans need to step up and we need to convince the city of Halifax not to build a mickey mouse small incapable stadium at Saint Mary`s who`s been holding out for a free stadium for their campus and still are embarrassing the public with their disgraceful all called hole of a stadium, yet their spending money to expand the tower and renovate their rink and other projects on campus.

The public of city and CFL fans that want a decent major multi purpose stadium which the city desperately needs and not a mickey mouse Sue Utech Special for Saint Mary`s, need to rally and stop any chance of a inadequate, not suitable, not sizeable enough, nor in the right location, to be built at Saint Mary`s, only to benefit Sue Utech and Saint Mary`s.

City Of Halifax seems to be retracting on the price of the new stadium where they seemed willing to build a 60 million dollar plus stadium, to half that, for only 30 million which will probably go at Saint Mary`s who will own and control this mickey mouse tiny stadium and Halifax will be a joke again just like the CommonWealth Games. Halifax are changing their tune since Peter MacKay is more in favour of a major stadium and he did use the word major stadium, than the World Trade Centre, so I believe Halifax are scared they are not going to get their 47 million for the World Trade Centre if they build a bigger major 25 to 30 permanent seat stadium. They seem like their protected themselves so they can get their 47 million for the Trade Center in the expense of a decent multi purpose 25 to 30 permanent seat stadium.

This truely upsets me because the City of Halifax were certainly willing to spend millions on first class expensive facilities, like a 45 million 4 Pad, 50 million dollar library, 50 million dollar Canada Games Centre, 57 million on a World Trade Centre but yet not willing to spend what is needed to give our city a decent major stadium for 60 million plus which is 100 million less than what they were going to spend on the CommonWealth Game.


This does not sound very encouraging, lets hope the City of Halifax gets back on track and builds a stadium that the majority of the people of Halifax wants and Halifax needs for the size of our city!

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

I am not Bruce bloody Devenne, and I think it is sad that people who actually can add up a column of numbers are compared to contrarians like him.

I'd love to see a stadium that we could afford.

That is my site.

This is a practical approach that you are taking. But having a CFL size stadium is not simply based on dollars and cents. I feel that an economically priced stadium goes beyond dollars and cents; it is based on Halifax area sports fans having dreams of becoming part of a Canadian football league that will bring excitement to the municipality.

I agree that a stadium should be built economically. I just don't agree with your viewpoint of limiting it to 15,000 seats. The CFL has repeatedly stated that it would like to have a team in Halifax. This is what the majority of people in the Halifax area want and they are the ones who pay the majority of taxes that will go towards a stadium. Ignoring the majority isn't how democracy is supposed to work. However, Mayor Kelly has repeatedly stated that he would like a major 25,000 seat stadium. So I don't know of any HRM standpoint that has been taken to limit it to 15,000 seats. However, we haven't heard much from the provincial government. What is their viewpoint?

I realize that you are not the contrarian that you mentioned. These people simply oppose everything with little thought and suck the spirit out of people.

[Waye Mason]

Thanks Fenwick16, I mean, maybe we can afford a 20-30K seat stadium, but we don't have a pricetag yet.

Here is how I would proceed:

Fix Husky Stadium - we have to fix it anyway, it is falling down, so the money is going to be spent regardless of anything else.
Don't go crazy - If we build a stadium as big as Moncton, that puts us in contention for the CFL
Apply for the expansion team - I would point out that when the Alouettes moved to Molson stadium at McGill it sat only 17K. Couldn't we start at 10K fixed, 5-10K temporary?
Build a new stadium in 10-15-20 years - if we get a team, if it plays to capacity crowds, if the demand is proven, then build a newer, bigger stadium. That is a lot of iffs. The baby boom average age is 65 this year. In 20 years it will be 85, which means 60-70% of you will be dead and no longer crippling the economy with your health care demands. Maybe we can think big then.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

If there was an infinite supply of money then we would have great schools, perfect unblemished roads, community centres with pools in walking distance of every home, a covered stadium, a convention centre, light rail, high speed ferries.

There is not. You have to prioritize. I don't think a stand alone stadium that the city has to pay to operate is in the cards. I think Sue is right, something at SMU is cost effective. If the choice is just a stand alone stadium, or a convention centre and 5-10K seats at SMU, I choose the later.

Waye, 27 years ago Halifax had a conditional CFL franchise with the stipulation that a suitable stadium be built. The $$$$ tag for that stadium was $6 million for 20,000 seats. It was determined that it would be very wise to cancel the bid and ensure that taxpayers continue to live a Royal existance. Where are those saved tax dollars today?

[FuzzyWuz]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

Apply for the expansion team - I would point out that when the Alouettes moved to Molson stadium at McGill it sat only 17K. Couldn't we start at 10K fixed, 5-10K temporary?

The Alouettes already existed, in their current form, for a few years in another stadium and then were forced to move. The only stadium available was at McGill. They were given a pass because they were in a bind. We are in a different situation. We want to show that we are serious about bidding for a team and so we should do what they have said, in writing, must be done to be seriously considered. We should not willingly start the game behind the eight ball.

[wespidel]

Moncton are having that problem now and I believe that is part of the reason they haven`t signed a new deal yet mainly because of the cost to make it a 20,000 make shift stadium which needs to go to 25,000 and by what Mr. cohon said at the Grey Cup that the CFL wants Moncton to expand their stadium permanently to 28 thousand permanent seats, with 20 plus skyboxes and permanent inside stadium concourses or they don`t qualify for a CFL franchise. Moncton can`t expand the smaller better side of the stadium which was a big mistake when they built it, they probably have to start all over on the other side and build double decker and bowl the endzones to reach 28 thousand which will cost them another 50 million plus because they built it wrong. The same exact thing would happen at Saint Mary`s which does not have the room because of the tower but could have a mickey mouse stadium like Moncton`s which is not suited and big enough with the necessary features needed for a CFL owner to survive. So why built it!

Halifax is not Moncton with only 125 thousand people and if Montreal wouldn`t have put in 19 more skyboxes and a new upper deck with a new concourse and expanded the other side of stadium as well to minium of 25 thousand, they would have not been able to continue losing money and that is why they had to expand and put in more skyboxes and more seats. All Halifax are doing is helping Saint Mary`s get a better facility than what they have, a small tiny liittle micxkey mouse stadium for Sue Utech. her Sue Utech Special.

When this happens I will be leaving city for good, it`s a joke and the city of Halifax is a joke. Fenwick you are wrong on your last post, totatly wrong!

[TheNovaScotian]

Ok, so I have sat here long enough reading post after post from the many sides of this discussion. I myself am a strong supporter of the glimmer of hope of having an adequate venue for the multitude of events that have passed Halifax by for far too long. I feel that all of you do too.

Now that after long last we have it back on the radar of "The Diddler" in office who lets face it, can't even get a high speed ferry for his beloved Bedford but that's besides the point, there are so many advantages when costing a project like this and on the operations side.

There needs to be less emphasis on a CFL franchise because it's going to turn alot of people off that don't like football let alone Canadian football, there should be a concerted effort to promote this as a concert venue so that we aren't tearing up The Commons every time we want to have a big name play in town, that will help shore up support from the fence sitters that are the people that need to be given a nudge to help them get behind the project and ultimately get a 25,000 permanent stadium built not something that wont serve the population we have now let alone any growth that is in the forecast.
Once people realize that they don't have to go to Moncton to watch a world class show and as crazy as it may sounds people from Moncton will want to come here to watch shows, I feel as petty as it may sound, will sway a good chunk as well.

Another point that was only touched upon a few pages back was that there are local company's that could do a large chunk of the work. Nova Scotia is an exporter of most of the ingredients of concrete so by keeping the costs of transportation down and money staying within the province with a local feel good story it would factor into the polls as well.

So really what every contributor and readers of this thread should be doing is try to get the grass roots swaying on this. You want as much civic and provincial pride swelling over this issue, You want to include as many people in this process that we can fit at any meetings that hopefully will come from "The Diddler's" efforts.

Most of all it cant be a us versus them on this one, this isn't a high rise that people can complain about height or historical aspects. This is about rightfully getting the infrastructure needed so our kids can have sports hero's they want to grow up and be like instead of laying on the coach playing football on their console, they might want to be outside working on their spiral or on their soccer footwork if we ever landed a MLS team
So all I'm saying is that I'm going to be doing my part by talking to people getting the message out that this is important and something has to be done

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by wespidel

Moncton are having that problem now and I believe that is part of the reason they haven`t signed a new deal yet mainly because of the cost to make it a 20,000 make shift stadium which needs to go to 25,000 and by what Mr. cohon said at the Grey Cup that the CFL wants Moncton to expand their stadium permanently to 28 thousand permanent seats, with 20 plus skyboxes and permanent inside stadium concourses or they don`t qualify for a CFL franchise. Moncton can`t expand the smaller better side of the stadium which was a big mistake when they built it, they probably have to start all over on the other side and build double decker and bowl the endzones to reach 28 thousand which will cost them another 50 million plus because they built it wrong. The same exact thing would happen at Saint Mary`s which does not have the room because of the tower but could have a mickey mouse stadium like Moncton`s which is not suited and big enough with the necessary features needed for a CFL owner to survive. So why built it!

Halifax is not Moncton with only 125 thousand people and if Montreal wouldn`t have put in 19 more skyboxes and a new upper deck with a new concourse and expanded the other side of stadium as well to minium of 25 thousand, they would have not been able to continue losing money and that is why they had to expand and put in more skyboxes and more seats. All Halifax are doing is helping Saint Mary`s get a better facility than what they have, a small tiny liittle micxkey mouse stadium for Sue Utech. her Sue Utech Special.

When this happens I will be leaving city for good, it`s a joke and the city of Halifax is a joke. Fenwick you are wrong on your last post, totally wrong!

(Plaster Stadium - source: http://www.prestressedcasting.com/port_msusports.php )



I think that we have to stop thinking in terms of the Halifax Commonwealth Games proposal or the Blue Bombers new stadium proposal and start thinking of a modular, concrete stadium that will be built in a similar manner to the Halifax MetroPark. Something affordable but permanent and think of ways to make it look half-decent. Something built like this MetroPark below would be fine with me.

(source: http://www.cpci.ca/?sc=potm&pn=monthly32003 )


Here are the companies that built the MetroPark:
(source: http://www.cpci.ca/?sc=potm&pn=monthly32003 )
Credits:
Owner: Halifax Regional Municipality - Halifax, Nova Scotia
Developer: The Hardman Group - Halifax, Nova Scotia
Architects: Duffus Romans Kundzins Rounsefell Architects Ltd. - Halifax, Nova Scotia
Structural Consultants: Campbell Comeau Engineering Limited - Halifax, Nova Scotia
General Contractor: McAlpine Construction - Halifax, Nova Scotia
Precast Fabricator: Strescon Limited - Saint John, New Brunswick

If you check the Strescon website they also can build stadiums - http://www.oceansteel.com/stadiumtech.aspx (PS: This isn't the company that I contacted) . The HRM can contact the same companies listed above in order to have a stadium built. When I think in terms of open-air concourses, I am thinking in terms of the open-air multilevel parking garage levels, not a temporary stadium with stands supported by temporary metal scaffolding. And I didn't say anything about it not having luxury boxes and media facilities. Maybe you misunderstood my meaning weispidel.

[fenwick16]

deleted post

[wespidel]

Fenwick I like the red and grey stands seating model that you are showing and I agree with you with concourses on both sides of two upper decks structure and keeping the endzones open for expansion to 45 thousand plus and the need for skyboxes. But won`t the concession stands which are part of the concourses and washrooms need to be heated, maybe not the whole concourse itself, isn`t that what happens in most stadiums and you were saying to reduce costs put the washroioms and concession stands in the corners of the concourses, wouldn`t you need concession stands all over the concourses.

I agree with your concept of a 25 ,000 plus permanent seat stadium and your design Fenwick. The big question Fenwick is can a stadium like Montreal`s McGill stadium be built for 60 plus million in a modest way like you instead with local developmnets with 20 plus skyboxes like McGill`s stadium and will the stadium have benches which is ok to keep the cost down or backed seats.

PS. Also Fenwick will you go to the meeting or do you not live in Halifax, Merry Xmas, Spyder*

[fenwick16]

deleted post

[Waye Mason]

I agree that Halifax has to stop comparing itself to Moncton but we have to be careful not to compare ourselves to Montreal.

Being the biggest city east of Quebec City does not make us as big as Quebec City.

As for using the stadium for concerts - won't save any money for the promoter. Promoter gains in fences and bathrooms are negated by loss of revenue in that the venue gets concessions, where on the Commons beer and food sales go in part to the promoter.

As for using a stadium for 2000 people... we already have sites that serve that need. And when you rent Landsdowne or Molson for just use of the field, you pay about $155 an hour, which is a nice civic use but hardly covers the maintenance and security on a 25,000 seat facility.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

As for using the stadium for concerts - won't save any money for the promoter. Promoter gains in fences and bathrooms are negated by loss of revenue in that the venue gets concessions, where on the Commons beer and food sales go in part to the promoter.

This has nothing to do with a stadium. It is the municipality that decides who gets concession money. Why would having a stadium change the concessions revenue formula? Concert financial details would be negotiated for a stadium just as they would for the Commons.

As for using a stadium for 2000 people... we already have sites that serve that need. And when you rent Landsdowne or Molson for just use of the field, you pay about $155 an hour, which is a nice civic use but hardly covers the maintenance and security on a 25,000 seat facility.

But we want a CFL team. Where will that be held? It can't be held on the Commons.

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

Don't go crazy - If we build a stadium as big as Moncton, that puts us in contention for the CFL

No it doesn't

[Waye Mason]

21K does put you in the ballpark (heheh).

2009 average game attendance, CFL:
1. Edmonton 37,164
2. Calgary 36502
3. Saskatchewan 30606
4. BC 28610
5. Toronto 26374
6. Winnipeg 25720
7. Hamilton 22532
8. Montreal 20202 - sold out.

2008:
Edmonton 37383
BC 34083
Calgary 32617
Saskatchewan 29758
Toronto 29189
Winnipeg 27151
Hamilton 20784
Montreal 20202 - sold out.

Don't tell me you can't run a CFL franchise on 21K seats, because obviously you can, 2 of the teams do, year after year.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

21K does put you in the ballpark (heheh).

2009 average game attendance, CFL:
1. Edmonton 37,164
2. Calgary 36502
3. Saskatchewan 30606
4. BC 28610
5. Toronto 26374
6. Winnipeg 25720
7. Hamilton 22532
8. Montreal 20202 - sold out.

2008:
Edmonton 37383
BC 34083
Calgary 32617
Saskatchewan 29758
Toronto 29189
Winnipeg 27151
Hamilton 20784
Montreal 20202 - sold out.

Don't tell me you can't run a CFL franchise on 21K seats, because obviously you can, 2 of the teams do, year after year.

The Molson Stadium has been renovated and the seating has been increased to 25,000 seats - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percival_Molson_Memorial_Stadium .

The success of the Percival Molson Stadium indicates that a compact design is a good model for the CFL. A permanent 25,000 seat stadium is what the CFL considers to be a minimum. I like the concept of having everything along the sidelines so that the end-zones are wide open for either permanent or temporary expansion. You should have given the 2010 attendance - I think the Montreal numbers would be much higher since they had a big crowd for a game at the Big O and they had an expanded Percival Molson Stadium.

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

Hamilton 20784
Montreal 20202 - sold out.

Don't tell me you can't run a CFL franchise on 21K seats, because obviously you can, 2 of the teams do, year after year.

Ivor Wynne (Hamilton's stadium) has a capacity of 30,000, so I'm not sure why you put it in bold. And we've already explained the Montreal situation at Percival Molson stadium, where they've recently completed an upgrade to bring the stadium up to the necessary 25,000 seats.
This 25,000 number isn't one we just pulled out of our asses, this came from Mark Cohon the CFL commissioner.
"For a stadium to be approved for official use as decreed by CFL commissioner Mark Cohon, it needs to be at least 25,000 and more likely 30,000." - source1, source2

I think he knows the requirements better than you do.

So again, no it doesn't.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

anything else.
Don't go crazy - If we build a stadium as big as Moncton, that puts us in contention for the CFL.

Just to clear up any misconceptions, the Moncton Stadium is not a large enough venue for the CFL, it only has 10,000 permanent seats (currently expandable to about 21,000 with temporary end zone seating).

As others have mentioned on this thread, the Moncton Stadium was built for a world track & field event and as such, extra money was spent to ensure that the field was up to world class standards but the stadium seating suffered somewhat as a result. There is no question that our facility needs significant upgrading to meet CFL standards. In the meantime, the Moncton Stadium is able to justify it's existence because it has attracted other events like the 2013 & 2014 Canadian Track & Field Championships, the 2011, 2013 and 2015 Uteck Bowls (sorry guys) and possibly additional CFL games (or FIFA women's soccer games). The city has also expended money for a special field covering so that the stadium can be used for concerts........between all this and university sporting events (including possibly a new AUS football team for U de M), the stadium will be busy.

BTW, one of the posters here intimated that the problems encountered with negotiating for additional CFL regular season games has something to do with the current stadium design..........this is true only in the sense that temporary end zone seating is required. We have already done this however and the event went off without a hitch. The real issue is that the CFL wants a multi-year deal (3-5 years), and there are troubles negotiating the financial arrangements for this with the new provincial government in NB and with ACOA.

I hope that negotiations for a multi-year deal don't fall through, it's very important (for both Moncton and Halifax) that we can prove that CFL football would be successful in the Maritimes on an ongoing basis.