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  #1381  
Old Posted May 4, 2007, 12:04 AM
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So i have a question: If/when a subway is built for the MAX will the tunnel alignment have to fall along the current route(beneath the streets and corners) or can it cut across the city diagonally? It seems like it would be smart to avoid sharp turns in order to speed the train up. Now this wouldn't apply to a subway under the bus mall but i think it would with red/blue line route. What would be the logistics building such a tunnel?
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  #1382  
Old Posted May 4, 2007, 4:06 AM
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Inner Southeast Light Rail: Looking more likely, this time around

By Eric Norberg

The Bee, May 3, 2007


This Metro route map for MAX light rail service through Inner Southeast, at the OMSI open house on April 9th, was the first route map THE BEE has seen on public display in recent years to suggest the restoration of an originally-promised north-Westmoreland light rail station--in this case, at Harold Street and McLoughlin.

On March 5th, a Metro open house in Milwaukie demonstrated that public opinion in that city had changed greatly since MAX light rail to the city had first been proposed. Today, it appears, the community is generally favorable to it, and the main question is determining the exact alignment of the service into Milwaukie.

It was the turn for residents of the Sellwood, Westmoreland, Eastmoreland, Brooklyn, and Hosford-Abernethy neighborhoods to have their say, at a Metro open house at the OMSI auditorium on Monday, April 9th. According to the Metro personnel on the scene, the feedback was mostly positive--as would be expected of an area which has always supported funding light rail in every election in which it was on the ballot, even for other areas now served by MAX.

The last time there was an Inner Southeast Light Rail open house in the auditorium of the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry, this area of Portland had successfully gotten the service “back on the table” after Tri-Met had officially declared the opportunity for it dead and gone. Seven years ago, THE BEE headlined that light rail was once again being considered, after Tri-Met found in a series of open houses that no other option was acceptable for the area (including floating taxis on the Willamette, dedicated bus lanes, and the like).

However, that time around, the surprise late addition of the I-205 alignment as an alternative proved the winner, mainly because it would be cheaper to build--the right-of-way was right down the middle of a publicly-owned freeway! Inner Southeast was pushed back to “the next project”--if funding became available.

In late March, the State Ways and Means Committee voted to favor directing funds available after the retirement of the Westside light rail bonds to Inner Southeast light rail, and funding looked brighter. Local state legislators, including Kate Brown and Carolyn Tomei, were assisting in that plan.

With the caution that this funding was still not definite and final at this point, and that this project has been offered and snatched away from Inner Southeast repeatedly in the past, the latest round of open houses are making MAX for our area look more and more likely.

One of the key decisions now to be made is how the proposed new light rail line would cross the Willamette River; the previously-preferred alignment projected a new bridge just south of the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry. Now, it appears funding and construction become much more likely if the new bridge were constructed so the MAX line were to serve the new “South Waterfront” district and OHSU facility south of the west end of the Ross Island Bridge. Two alternate routes for such a bridge, both also accommodating the Eastside Trolley from OMSI back to downtown, are now under active study.

Of special interest to residents of Westmoreland, the removal of the planned north-end light rail station from the official plans a few years ago has apparently finally been recognized. After SMILE’s Neighborhood Plan a decade ago had sought (and received) rezoning at the north end for residential density, to reflect planned use of that particular station, the deletion of any station in the two mile stretch between Holgate and Bybee had become a cause celebre.

At least one of the route maps posted in the OMSI open house showed, pasted-in, a potential MAX station on McLoughlin Boulevard at Harold Street--where there is already a signalized pedestrian crossing for bus riders, making foot access to a MAX station at the entrance to the Union Pacific trainyard a practical option. This, too, is not definite and final, but it is the first formal recognition noted by THE BEE in a public forum that the deletion of the previous Westmoreland station has been noted and might be reversed.
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  #1383  
Old Posted May 4, 2007, 3:12 PM
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Great news for SE PDX. Finally, some respect.
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  #1384  
Old Posted May 4, 2007, 3:42 PM
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There are two ways the subway could be built; a bored tunnel, or cut and cover. A bored tunnel involves a tunnel boring machine that travels the length of the subway and causes the least disruption at the surface. Surface work is limited to the ends of the tunnels and the station areas. Generally, the tunnel needs to be fairly deep to avoid subsiding at the surface. The West Hills tunnel was built this way. The cut and cover method involves digging a deep 20'-25' trench the entire length of the subway, then covering it back up with new streets along the entire route. This is extremely disruptive and most businesses along the route would be opposed to this method. There are cost, time and functionality trade-offs with each option depending on total subway length, space between stations, paving finishes at the surface, etc.

If the tunnel is deep enough, yes, you can go diagonally across occupied city blocks (beneath buildings) with the subway. Most European cities do this. But you have to pay extra $$$ to use private property for a subway, even if it's 100' down. So realistically, the subway here will stay as much within the public right-of-way as possible. Personally, I think Broadway makes the most sense for a subway route through DT, and Multnomah St. through Lloyd Center.
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  #1385  
Old Posted May 4, 2007, 9:17 PM
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^ don't forget that some of the building foundations are rather deep; you wouldn't want to tunnel underneath those and have to shore them up.

The real tricky part of a subway is dealing with the river...
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  #1386  
Old Posted May 4, 2007, 9:48 PM
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Not really, tunnelling underwater is done all over the world. In fact, most cities that have subways also have routes that go underwater. Paris, London, New York, Boston, Philly, Amsterdam, Berlin, Stockholm, St. Petersburg, Tokyo, Glasgow, Moscow, etc., etc. Actually, it's pretty common.

The west side big pipe was tunnelled under the Willamette using the same type of boring machine that would build the subway.
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  #1387  
Old Posted May 4, 2007, 11:00 PM
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some construction pics from www.portlandmall.org and sorry I don't know why there are huge gaps between each picture
North Mall Construction












Centrail Mall Construction














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  #1388  
Old Posted May 5, 2007, 1:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zilfondel View Post
^ don't forget that some of the building foundations are rather deep; you wouldn't want to tunnel underneath those and have to shore them up.

The real tricky part of a subway is dealing with the river...
also, 405 would force it to run fairly deeply
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  #1389  
Old Posted May 5, 2007, 3:45 AM
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So is there even a remote chance that a subway will get built? I know we all talk about it as if its going to happen but it seems as if it has a lot going against it. Its going to be expensive as hell to be build it, especially if they shoot for two subways thru DT.
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  #1390  
Old Posted May 5, 2007, 4:26 PM
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i really doubt they would build a subway diagonally through downtown, if one does happen it will go under a street's right of way. i cant think of too many subways that run diagonally to the streets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 65MAX
Personally, I think Broadway makes the most sense for a subway route through DT, and Multnomah St. through Lloyd Center.
broadway is an interesting idea for a subway route, afterall downtown is shifting westward and the existing transit mall could then remain untouched by the subway construction and revert back to a bus mall.
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  #1391  
Old Posted May 5, 2007, 5:20 PM
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N-S on broadway from union station to psu, with the line from the west coming down salmon. would make sense to me.
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  #1392  
Old Posted May 5, 2007, 5:48 PM
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Even if they built a subway I doubt if most of light rail tracks would be removed...just converted to a street car configuration.
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  #1393  
Old Posted May 5, 2007, 8:20 PM
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the brick laying process is really interesting from flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rynosoft/












http://www.flickr.com/photos/portland-pete/



if you get sick of all the pics tell me!
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  #1394  
Old Posted May 5, 2007, 9:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxstreetcar View Post
broadway is an interesting idea for a subway route, afterall downtown is shifting westward and the existing transit mall could then remain untouched by the subway construction and revert back to a bus mall.
Broadway is more centrally located to the area between 405 and Naito Pkwy. It's close to both the high density housing in the West End and the Pearl, and the high rise offices along 5th and 6th. And yes, the transit mall would be able to remain intact. The tracks they're laying now would become streetcar only, but they could also serve as an emergency bypass route for MAX should the subway need to be closed temporarily for whatever reason.

So as much as I was against the second surface MAX alignment, at least those tracks will still be functionally relevant after the subway goes in. It's not a waste of resources.
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  #1395  
Old Posted May 5, 2007, 10:07 PM
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I thought someone said the streetcar can't run on the max tracks
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  #1396  
Old Posted May 5, 2007, 10:18 PM
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Yes they can, and they do occasionally. They have the same wheel width and electrical requirements as the MAX cars. The difference is the streetcar bodies are a little narrower, so when they stop at a MAX station, there's a several inch wide gap betwen the door and the platform. It's fine for most people, but not ADA-compliant for people with disabilities.

I think the newer streetcars will come with a small filler plate that extends when the doors open at a MAX platform, so none of the MAX platforms would need to be retrofitted later when the Transit Mall alignment is converted to streetcar-only use in the future.
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  #1397  
Old Posted May 6, 2007, 4:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dougall5505 View Post
if you get sick of all the pics tell me!
Oh most certainly I am not sick of all the pics. As far as I'm concerned, the more the better! So thanks for taking the time to post 'em.
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  #1398  
Old Posted May 6, 2007, 4:43 AM
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⬆ I agree!... keep them coming...

Last edited by PacificNW; May 6, 2007 at 4:32 PM.
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  #1399  
Old Posted May 6, 2007, 5:37 AM
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I'm in the Pearl and/or SoWa every day, but it's still great to see the pics. They sometimes reveal things that you don't see when you're walking or driving through. Plus, most people reading these forums don't have the opportunity to see the progress taking place there. You're doing everyone a service Dougall, and CouvScott, and everyone else who takes the time to post their pics. Thanks from all of us.
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  #1400  
Old Posted May 6, 2007, 4:10 PM
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i second 65max, the more pictures the better, and i go thru these areas every day
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