The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

I certainly don't support only one exit, however it is worth noting that traffic in and out of the station may actually drop once the Millennium line comes online since the station will no longer be a major B line interchange.

Yeah, translink predicts just that, a drop in station entrance/exits, but an increase of use.

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[yaletown_fella]

Going past the Eglinton East portion of the Eglinton line construction. Putting it at grade here is the single biggest mistake in Torontos transit construction. Especially considering Scarborough has some of the worst drivers in Canada. Once theres an accident caused by some idiot turning left the whole line will be delayed for hours or more.

Toronto transit panners should visit Vancouver to see how to build an efficient and affordable elevated network. But unfortunately it's a city of extreme thinking ; counselers either treat surface LRT or full fledged buried subway as a religion.

[J.OT13]

Couple from Ottawa.

Tunney's Pasture.


https://twitter.com/OTrainFans613/status/1174665743016898560

Rideau Station.


https://twitter.com/OTrainFans613/status/1173218717632741376

Longest transit escalator in Canada, Rideau Station.


https://twitter.com/OTrainFans613/status/1174136766397374464

Parliament Station concourse.


https://twitter.com/OTrainFans613/status/1173578864288833537


https://twitter.com/OTrainFans613/status/1172935864990781448

Lyon Station concourse.


https://twitter.com/dbellerive15/status/1173083025233629184

[Nouvellecosse]

Are there any estimates or projections of what the ridership of the confederation like is likely to be within a year or two?

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Are there any estimates or projections of what the ridership of the confederation like is likely to be within a year or two?

As of Monday October 7, once the parallel bus service ends, ridership will be over 200,000 per weekday. Just short of 10,000 phpd at peak. They estimate the ridership will reach 18,000 phpd by 2031, but I believe it will be much higher by then. I haven't seen any short term ridership projections.

[Nouvellecosse]

That's actually quite impressive! Especially considering Ottawa's population. That would make it the busiest line in LA, and the second busiest in Chicago for instance.

[SkahHigh]

That seems like a nice system. Congrats Ottawa, can't wait to try it.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by yaletown_fella

Going past the Eglinton East portion of the Eglinton line construction. Putting it at grade here is the single biggest mistake in Torontos transit construction. Especially considering Scarborough has some of the worst drivers in Canada. Once theres an accident caused by some idiot turning left the whole line will be delayed for hours or more.

Toronto transit panners should visit Vancouver to see how to build an efficient and affordable elevated network. But unfortunately it's a city of extreme thinking ; counselers either treat surface LRT or full fledged buried subway as a religion.

This is not the single biggest mistake in Toronto's transit construction. Eglinton is wide enough and major intersections are far apart to support lrt here. An elevated lrt is not the same price as a surface lrt and would negatively impact the urban boulevard they are trying to create. I really don't get the obsession with grade separation. There are times when lrt in right of ways are sufficient. Europe does it successfully. Eglinton is a hybrid line for both commuter and local as a true commuter line would be heading towards Union in the straightest line possible with spread out stations and as close to neighbourhood centres as allowable instead of positioned right in them.

I appreciate what Vancouver has done with the Skytrain and the density nodes built up around the stations. It's not something I have ever envisioned for Toronto.

https://www.google.com/maps/@49.2663155,...itch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192
Fuck no to Eglinton!

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

I appreciate what Vancouver has done with the Skytrain and the density nodes built up around the stations. It's not something I have ever envisioned for Toronto.

https://www.google.com/maps/@49.2663155,...itch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192
Fuck no to Eglinton!

I can see how elevated guideways really don't fit well with the vibe on Eglinton Avenue.

[Nouvellecosse]

The parts of Eglinton that an elevated guideway wouldn't "fit the vibe" of are the sections already being built underground. The surface sections like this:

https://goo.gl/maps/JwjpaeDRLH2Egb3T8
https://goo.gl/maps/4CC5rwzFWsgBt5b17

simply don't have a vibe one should be concerned about messing with imo. I agree with WS in that the lack of grade separation probably won't cause too great a loss in speed, but it just seems a bit of a waste to me for a line that's already mostly underground to not take advantages of the efficiencies afforded by grade separation such as the ability to fully automate. Besides, not having "too great a loss in speed" isn't the same as not having any loss in speed.

Also, the elevated version could keep most of the planned stations considering that while elevated light metro stations are costlier than surface lrt stations, they're still much cheaper than the underground stations on much of the line. And if the station spacing on the rest of the line is sufficient for the denser more urban section I can't see why the suburban wasteland section needs more closely-spaced service.

[Metro-One]

Yeah, I don’t see how an elevated track would ruin the “vibe” or “character” of that stretch of Eglinton. I feel there are many wide streets and corridors perfect for elevated rail in Toronto and area.

[Innsertnamehere]

Well I guess the consolation prize is that about half of the Eglinton west extension is planned to be elevated.

[WhipperSnapper]

SSP can be so frustrating. It's the planned vision and not the current day vibe. Granted land owners are already proposing large towers on oversized podiums instead of the human scaled urban streetscape as part of the Eglinton package. Sorry, I find the elevated track in the middle of the road hideous and a waste of money

Why would full automation matter at the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars? A big part of Toronto's deficient transit is because it's just never good enough and therefore nothing gets built. Elevation is cheaper than a full subway system but, it's still a much higher cost than what is in the budget.

Common sense is you tunnel where you need to tunnel. You elevate where you need elevate. Everywhere else a right of way should be sufficient.

[SFUVancouver]

I think that dismissing automation out of hand is short-sighted. Over the life of a rapid transit system savings in labour costs must massively outweigh the incremental increase to capital costs. Plus, it delivers a higher level of service to passengers: greater frequency through shorter train headways, the ability to maintain greater frequencies during off-peak hours, and the ability to fine-tune level of service to infrequent and unpredictable events, such as the end-time for a major sporting event or public celebration.

With respect to elevated vs tunneled vs at-grade. They all have their role. The Millennium Line utilizes all three, albeit overwhelmingly in an elevated condition. Lougheed Highway is a wide regional highway masquerading in places as a local arterial. Placing the Millennium line within this corridor meant that property acquisition costs were minimal, construction disruption was minimal (since there was sufficient road cross section to build the line without closing street access, less a lane in each direction), and, most importantly, it is fully grade separated. I don't pretend that the elevated guideway is ideal or intrinsically appealing, but it's not uniformly awful by any stretch of the imagination.

There are a variety of ways to use elevated along (or alongside) street streets without destroying them. Here are a few examples:

Quebec Street (City of Vancouver): https://goo.gl/maps/Z26PhQwu5a9ZxiTq9
Granview Highway North (City of Vancouver): https://goo.gl/maps/auep3gq8w8zQZiFU6
Victoria Drive (City of Vancouver): https://goo.gl/maps/YiY3MMMZDg1TYgft9
Vanness and Joyce (City of Vancouver): https://goo.gl/maps/9jeoEzr8VG3qXJzc7
Vanness and Ormindale (City of Vancouver): https://goo.gl/maps/T1MeodDBQLuajPrS9
Central Boulevard (City of Burnaby): https://goo.gl/maps/NiDF8LUu4SzYhTo2A
Rumble Avenue (City of Burnaby): https://goo.gl/maps/gFRqoyGJbNJb2fTcA
Cambie Street and Marine Drive (City of Vancouver): https://goo.gl/maps/C4S3u3Zd56ykq4a26
Number 3 Road and Cambie Road (City of Richmond): https://goo.gl/maps/gGRewhQxqf2rqA1Z8
Number 3 Road and Lansdowne (City of Richmond): https://goo.gl/maps/pS5gKz6dNP5PQQYG6

[J.OT13]

I would add Main Street-Science Centre to your list, around the corner from your first example. The renovated station looks amazing and the integration of the guideway under the building is well executed.

https://www.google.com/maps/@49.2730712,...p9XDAvm0XpexyIl2Ny8pg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

SSP can be so frustrating. It's the planned vision and not the current day vibe. Granted land owners are already proposing large towers on oversized podiums instead of the human scaled urban streetscape as part of the Eglinton package. Sorry, I find the elevated track in the middle of the road hideous and a waste of money

Why would full automation matter at the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars? A big part of Toronto's deficient transit is because it's just never good enough and therefore nothing gets built. Elevation is cheaper than a full subway system but, it's still a much higher cost than what is in the budget.

Common sense is you tunnel where you need to tunnel. You elevate where you need elevate. Everywhere else a right of way should be sufficient.

The problem with "common sense" is that it isn't necessarily correct sense nor even as common as a particular person thinks it is. My common sense tells me that a line should be designed as an overall project and not on section-by-section piecemeal basis. If the majority of a line is best suited to one type of train and a minority is best suited to another, you adapt the minority part to what's best for the majority part rather than vice-versa. As it stands, the tunnel has been adapted with larger diameter tunnels to handle overhead caternary lrt trains just to comply with the decision to have them on the shorter section. I don't agree with that decision but it's done and the money spent While that weakens the net advantage of unifying as light metro, it doesn't lessen the individual benefits. I also think automation should be taken more seriously since the largest portion of operational costs for high-frequency services comes from labour, and the main limiting factors in terms of both speed and frequency comes from a lack of grade separation.

In terms of aesthetics, I simply set that future "vision" aside and didn't even include in the consideration. I just don't find it plausible that having an at-grade transit line will accomplish such a vision. Or at least any more plausible an elevated line will accomplish it. And to be frank, based on the current state of the corridor this would basically be starting from scratch, harder than if it was either greenfield or an area with slightest semblance of urban bones. There are plenty of other corridors in Toronto that have greater potential to be developed in such a manner than this stretch of Eglinton so that's just an irrelevant pipe-dream distraction imo. How about new streetcar extensions turning the Queensway or Lakeshore Blvd E into high quality, human scaled urban boulevards?

In terms of the actual structure, I too find the elevated guideways in Richmond unattractive. But there are examples of elevated guideways that i find more appealing (such as Rotterdam and Copenhagen Metros) and there are a number of things that can improve the aesthetic appeal such as painting, art, greenery such as shrubs, hanging planters and vines, etc.

[Taeolas]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Couple from Ottawa.

Rideau Station.

Longest transit escalator in Canada, Rideau Station.

So I wonder how many days a week one or the other (I assume there are 2 for each direction?) will be out of order; or just stopped because someone hit the emergency stop?


Anyways, the Ottawa system is looking sweet. Nice to see the Transitway finally looking like it should probably have originally (a rail system). Can't wait to give it a ride or two the next time I head to Ottawa.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

I think that dismissing automation out of hand is short-sighted. Over the life of a rapid transit system savings in labour costs must massively outweigh the incremental increase to capital costs. Plus, it delivers a higher level of service to passengers: greater frequency through shorter train headways, the ability to maintain greater frequencies during off-peak hours, and the ability to fine-tune level of service to infrequent and unpredictable events, such as the end-time for a major sporting event or public celebration.

With respect to elevated vs tunneled vs at-grade. They all have their role. The Millennium Line utilizes all three, albeit overwhelmingly in an elevated condition. Lougheed Highway is a wide regional highway masquerading in places as a local arterial. Placing the Millennium line within this corridor meant that property acquisition costs were minimal, construction disruption was minimal (since there was sufficient road cross section to build the line without closing street access, less a lane in each direction), and, most importantly, it is fully grade separated. I don't pretend that the elevated guideway is ideal or intrinsically appealing, but it's not uniformly awful by any stretch of the imagination.

The logic behind that is since higher levels of governments are paying for the infrastructure, they want it to be cheaper. They don't care about operating costs because they're paid for by the municipalities or transit governing authorities.

I also don't get the hate about elevated structures. They fit more into their environments than at-grade LRT.

This for me cuts the urban feeling : https://www.google.ca/maps/@51.0633809,-...so5z0mtQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!9m2!1b1!2i39