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  #101  
Old Posted Aug 12, 2010, 8:13 PM
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Originally Posted by halifaxboyns View Post
Planning is about compromise, especially on projects where there is controversy. The fact that anything got approved at all on this site; considering the opposition to the original approval is a miracle.

In situations where I've dealt with projects like this; the emphasis should be placed on getting a reasonably compromised project approved in order to provide context to another development down the road. For example: If you had an area that had mainly 2 storey single family homes and someone consolidated a number of lots and proposed a 15 storey building - you may get a lot of opposition. So you compromise and bring the height of the building down and say it gets approved at 8 storeys? Not what everyone wants; but it gets approved.

A few years down the road; the same (or a different) developer consolidates more lots and proposes a 15 storey building. There may still be opposition; but then you have the context of the approved building to say; well 8 is pretty tall; so lets go slightly more. It may result in a compromise of say 12 storeys or the 15 storey may get approved; but you take small steps forward to the desired level.
That is true... But it's not a good way to develop a city. I mean when a developer wants to build a nice building, and has great plans for it, but then gets turned down. They'll just come out with cookie cutter buildings, to get something approved, then just keep coming out with lousy designs until the day they get their 'vision' building a go ahead.

Alot of developers have a flagship building they want to build (like the Trillium is for Fares,) and put alot of effort and thought into a building. When it gets turned down, they just create bland buildings to get something built while their focus is on their flagship building.

I don't think compromising should have a place in development. Yes, some structures need compromise (like a 15 story building in a suburban development, that should be scaled down a bit.) But if a design looks good, and has function etc. It should get built... Not slaughtered and butchered (compromised) down to nothing. It just makes developers frustrated, and makes them design bland designs.
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  #102  
Old Posted Aug 12, 2010, 9:10 PM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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Originally Posted by Canadian_Bacon View Post
That is true... But it's not a good way to develop a city. I mean when a developer wants to build a nice building, and has great plans for it, but then gets turned down. They'll just come out with cookie cutter buildings, to get something approved, then just keep coming out with lousy designs until the day they get their 'vision' building a go ahead.

Alot of developers have a flagship building they want to build (like the Trillium is for Fares,) and put alot of effort and thought into a building. When it gets turned down, they just create bland buildings to get something built while their focus is on their flagship building.

I don't think compromising should have a place in development. Yes, some structures need compromise (like a 15 story building in a suburban development, that should be scaled down a bit.) But if a design looks good, and has function etc. It should get built... Not slaughtered and butchered (compromised) down to nothing. It just makes developers frustrated, and makes them design bland designs.
Unfortunately; the reality of planning (not just in Nova Scotia) is that there is some public input at some level or point of the process. They could have gone the route of rezoning to R-3 (I think that would be the correct zone) - but yet again; there would've been a public hearing - so they could've fought it that way too.

One thing that I think HRM is playing a bit of catch up on; which might have helped in this situation is the whole policy side. Zoning typically doesn't utilize a lot of policy; it's rules based. But when it comes to development agreements, it really gets more into the policy side.

Where this project may have benefited from more policy; is if a regional transportation system was in place and Bayer's Road was a major transit centre. In my vision for HRM; I see Bayer's Road being a major stop along some sort of regional rapid transit line (be it LRT, regional heavy rail; brt; whatever). So from that perspective; there could be additional policy placed on the area for Transit Oriented Development that creates and encourages more intensive use of land. In this case, if a TOD plan had been in place - I suspect that a 600m radium from the transit station should have been able to grab this parcel and then it would've been more supportive too a bigger/more intense project.

I don't disagree with you; but after 10 years of doing planning; I've seen major projects get cut down or shot down simply because of NIMBY. Part of knowing how to get a project approved; it's knowing how to play the game. I have to say; I've played the game pretty well and gotten the NIMBY's a good share of the time - but only because I've had effective policy to back up my recommendations.

My dream is that with the next regional plan; there is much more concrete language the support more intensive use of land. My dream is that the regional plan will set way higher density minimums for new communities; with the minimum amount of the gross developable area of these new areas devoted to high density being at least 50% and the minimum total community density of 55 to 60 u/ha and up. Unfortunately; there will be a push back to compromise - but I can dream...
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  #103  
Old Posted Aug 12, 2010, 9:52 PM
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^ Good points, and I have to agree. I see where your coming from.

I definitely agree with your 'dream.'
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  #104  
Old Posted Aug 12, 2010, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by halifaxboyns View Post
Unfortunately; the reality of planning (not just in Nova Scotia) is that there is some public input at some level or point of the process. They could have gone the route of rezoning to R-3 (I think that would be the correct zone) - but yet again; there would've been a public hearing - so they could've fought it that way too.
The big issue I have with the way the HRM handles planning is that they go into way too much detail for each project. Each is treated more or less as a novel thing when in reality there are hundreds of similar apartment buildings around the city. The complaints are the same every time - it is utterly worthless to listen to NIMBY #8432893489 complain that the building is too tall. Seriously, they might as well attach a header to each development report with fake names complaining about height, traffic, parking, "green space", and telling everybody to think of the children.

Really what should be done is that public participation should come into play when codifying general rules, particularly when it comes to heights and densities. A good side benefit might be a bit of a shift in public attention toward design.

HRM by Design has done this somewhat but has turned out to still be incredibly slow and most of the city is not covered.
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  #105  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2010, 12:09 AM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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The big issue I have with the way the HRM handles planning is that they go into way too much detail for each project. Each is treated more or less as a novel thing when in reality there are hundreds of similar apartment buildings around the city. The complaints are the same every time - it is utterly worthless to listen to NIMBY #8432893489 complain that the building is too tall. Seriously, they might as well attach a header to each development report with fake names complaining about height, traffic, parking, "green space", and telling everybody to think of the children.
lol, hasn't the HT/STV done such things via internet comments?
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  #106  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2010, 4:00 AM
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The big issue I have with the way the HRM handles planning is that they go into way too much detail for each project. Each is treated more or less as a novel thing when in reality there are hundreds of similar apartment buildings around the city. The complaints are the same every time - it is utterly worthless to listen to NIMBY #8432893489 complain that the building is too tall. Seriously, they might as well attach a header to each development report with fake names complaining about height, traffic, parking, "green space", and telling everybody to think of the children.
You know this got me thinking to the first time I wrote a planning report - I was so proud of it. 4.5 pages of the greatest stuff I had ever written. When I got it back from the GM of the Planning Department I worked for; it was 2 paragraphs. He told me I wrote way too much and it wasn't university lol.

Each manager/director has a different style. If you look at some of the reports written for variance appeals; they are pretty short. Council reports can get a bit long anywhere; but it depends on the style of the person in charge. I'm guess that someone in HRM likes them to be detailed; where as most of the people I've work with; like them short. I'd show an example of mine; but apparently my CPC reports from 2007 have been taken down (since they only keep the last two years online).

I want to quote something which I think is important to remember. This is from the second section of Alberta's Municipal Government, Part 17 (Planning and Development Section):

'The purpose of this part (P&D section) and the regulations and Bylaws undert this part is to provide means whereby plans and related matters may be prepared and adopted
(a) to achieve the orderly, economical and beneficial development, use of land and patterns of human settlement, and
(b) to maintain and improve the quality of the physical environment within which patterns of human settlement are situated in Alberta;
without infringing on the rights of individuals for any public interest except to the extent that is necessary for the overall greater public interest'. (Emphasis added)

Now i've noted a few sections - which basically say (in simple terms); strive for balance. Planning is a difficult thing; because on the one hand you have people who believe that the optimum use of the land should be achieved (tall and big). On the other; you have people who believe that change is not needed and status quo is good. Planners have to often fall in the middle and it's not easy. I have more grey hairs than I want to count and I'm turning 33 in September - mainly from the stress of achieving that balance.

Put yourself in the other sides shoes for a minute - remember, they don't understand why people want to live in highrise residential. They were raised that the 'dream' is to have a house in the burbs with kids. They don't understand population shift; DINKS or any of that...they just want to stay in their homes forever (they don't realize that as they continue to get older; keeping such a big empty house for 2 people or 1 is not feasible). Heck, I was raised by a single parent to believe that was the dream - do I own a house, nope. Will I? Possibly; but not right now and as soon as my mom had the chance; she sold the house and moved into a condo! So now she's totally preaching condo living.

As time passes; the choice of the consumer seems to be shifting (not very fast); but still noticably to condos (townhouses or multi). It will continue because I'm suspecting (this is my guess) that as time passes and the baby boomers age and retire; more of them will want condos or developers will propose high rise seniors residences that they would have an interest in living in. It just takes time is all; time and patience.

We seem to be shifting from the topic of this thread though...
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  #107  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2010, 11:45 PM
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This project is flying along. I wasn't able to get above ground floor count when driving by today but I'm impressed.
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  #108  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2010, 11:58 PM
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This project is flying along. I wasn't able to get above ground floor count when driving by today but I'm impressed.
It was eight, four and two last week. I have a photo somewheres but I keep forgetting to upload it ... oh well fresh ones tomorrow hopefully.
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  #109  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2010, 10:52 PM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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Looks like they are working on floors 9 and 5.

Credit: Christian Laforce, Chronicle Herald Staff



http://thechronicleherald.ca/Business/1199801.html

Also interesting... they mention a crane that will go up at BIO soon. Anybody know what that project is?
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  #110  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2010, 2:08 AM
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Here's a better photo from Wednesday;







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  #111  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2010, 3:33 AM
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Also interesting... they mention a crane that will go up at BIO soon. Anybody know what that project is?
Its for the new Coast Guard offices. There's a thread somewheres on it.
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  #112  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2010, 5:38 AM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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Its for the new Coast Guard offices. There's a thread somewheres on it.
Thanks! Amazing shots BTW... I think I speak for everybody when I say that I really appreciate your updates.

The view down Bayers looks almost truly urban now.
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  #113  
Old Posted Sep 3, 2010, 10:26 AM
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Thanks for the updates Dmajackson.
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  #114  
Old Posted Sep 14, 2010, 10:30 PM
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Without coming off negative, it's kind of disappointing to come down bayers rd from the 102 toward this building. It's just not something that impress' me like the first concept would have. This was a real opportunity missed in my opinion.
But here's my Nova Scotian response. "At least it's something"
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  #115  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2010, 1:44 AM
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Without coming off negative, it's kind of disappointing to come down bayers rd from the 102 toward this building. It's just not something that impress' me like the first concept would have. This was a real opportunity missed in my opinion.
But here's my Nova Scotian response. "At least it's something"
Yeah, its kind of a shame... but my hope is that the developer does something tall after this.

The only real benefit I see to it being shorter and longer is that it hides the ugly gymnastics warehouse building behind it.

I'm really scared to see the materials to be used on this building... I would personally like to see a yellow brick similar to the towers behind it.
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  #116  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2010, 4:47 AM
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Yeah, its kind of a shame... but my hope is that the developer does something tall after this.

The only real benefit I see to it being shorter and longer is that it hides the ugly gymnastics warehouse building behind it.

I'm really scared to see the materials to be used on this building... I would personally like to see a yellow brick similar to the towers behind it.
Its becoming more clear to me that HRM would be taller development through slow (and I mean slow) steps forward; unlike out here where the question is often asked why isn't it taller?

That's fine though. Fort Mac; when I worked there; had only a 14 storey building as the tallest urban development. Then Bond Street Properties came along with Bond Towers and that changed the downtown; forever. Two towers, 24 and 30 stories. It was tough to get approved and I remember every meeting doing the james bond theme in my head; due to the name. Within a year; there were 8 applications for towers (mostly residential) in the downtown. Total number built to date: 0 (as far as I know). Even Bond street hasn't been built and the permit expired - twice. I extended it before leaving; then it expired and the council had to redo the approval. I think it's expired again since...

Halifax's slow growth is the exact opposite and benefit than Fort Mac - it's grown slowly and organically (taking the time to get it reasonably right)...sorry I couldn't resist that joke. But it's taken time to build up heights and it's slow; but it will happen. Takes time...Halifax isn't going to turn into New York or Toronto (with huge tall buildings) right away and to a certain extent I don't think I'd want it too.
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  #117  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2010, 5:03 AM
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Its becoming more clear to me that HRM would be taller development through slow (and I mean slow) steps forward; unlike out here where the question is often asked why isn't it taller?

Halifax's slow growth is the exact opposite and benefit than Fort Mac - it's grown slowly and organically (taking the time to get it reasonably right)...sorry I couldn't resist that joke. But it's taken time to build up heights and it's slow; but it will happen. Takes time...Halifax isn't going to turn into New York or Toronto (with huge tall buildings) right away and to a certain extent I don't think I'd want it too.
You're right, but it is very frustrating to have to wait for this growth being a young person. Its all fine for the older obstructionists because the economic climate doesn't impact them in the slightest.

All of my friends have moved to Toronto, Calgary, or Montreal... I myself have been forced to move on. I don't mind it so much, as I am gaining experience I could never get in Halifax...

The consolation is that in 10-20 years the makeup of Halifax will be much different and I believe alot of people from my cohort will return to Halifax with money.

The obstructionists are just delaying the unavoidable fact that Halifax will continue to urbanize and grow upward. It is amazing how many projects we have approved and I think a number of them will happen. Eventually downtown will be completely developed and I think that is the point where we will start to see better heritage restoration, etc. It is ironic that this is generally the outcome of development.

PS- I liked the Keith's quote

Last edited by worldlyhaligonian; Sep 15, 2010 at 5:07 AM. Reason: additional comment on the "time to get it right" quote
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  #118  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2010, 5:38 AM
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I think the fact that young people in Halifax tend to move to many different places is a positive thing. I would not want to live my life in only one place, and there is a definite backwardness to many places where people tend to stay put and have limited life experiences.

It is also true that the organic growth has created some very strong neighbourhoods in Halifax. There is a huge amount of diversity of architecture and uses in a very small area in the older parts of Halifax, something you don't see in sterile new areas of condos in cities like Vancouver. I would like to see these areas grow and fill in. Having more modern buildings and infill would add another layer to the city. It's already been happening to some degree and it's been very beneficial.
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  #119  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2010, 12:50 AM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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I think the fact that young people in Halifax tend to move to many different places is a positive thing. I would not want to live my life in only one place, and there is a definite backwardness to many places where people tend to stay put and have limited life experiences.

It is also true that the organic growth has created some very strong neighbourhoods in Halifax. There is a huge amount of diversity of architecture and uses in a very small area in the older parts of Halifax, something you don't see in sterile new areas of condos in cities like Vancouver. I would like to see these areas grow and fill in. Having more modern buildings and infill would add another layer to the city. It's already been happening to some degree and it's been very beneficial.
Very true, but the issue lies in talent drain. Halifax seems to have either shitty entry level jobs or senior management positions, with very little in between.

Most of the good jobs are taken by older people that are entrenched and trying to stay on board as long as possible. It is definitely an older city compared to Calgary or Toronto.

I think the incumbents are partially to blame for the malaise that exists.
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  #120  
Old Posted Sep 17, 2010, 8:24 PM
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Has anyobdy been around this area lately?
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