Winnipeg | Portage and Main

[GEli]

There's a barber (Cutting Station) in the rotunda, but you're right about the rest. The cobbler closed soon after 300 Main forced them to a larger space near the dry cleaner, and the nearest business clothing store would be Eph Apparel on Smith.

[Riverman]

Not sure if I understand this. So the plan is to dig up P&M and fill in the mostly unused concourse, and opening up the street to pedestrians? If that is the case, it doesn't sound like a bad idea.

[pegster]

Originally Posted by Riverman

Not sure if I understand this. So the plan is to dig up P&M and fill in the mostly unused concourse, and opening up the street to pedestrians? If that is the case, it doesn't sound like a bad idea.

Yes, except that the mayor seemed to indicate that the "decommissioning" of the concourse could happen without major traffic disruptions, as opposed to fixing the membrane and saving the concourse, which would require 4-5 years of traffic disruptions at P&M. How this decommissioning is done without digging up the intersection, I have no idea, but that's for the city engineers I guess.

[cheswick]

Mayor wants it open by July 1 2025.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manit...sing-1.7136681

[drew]

Originally Posted by pegster

Yes, except that the mayor seemed to indicate that the "decommissioning" of the concourse could happen without major traffic disruptions, as opposed to fixing the membrane and saving the concourse, which would require 4-5 years of traffic disruptions at P&M. How this decommissioning is done without digging up the intersection, I have no idea, but that's for the city engineers I guess.

Winnipeg Square - the gift that keeps on giving.

[FactaNV]

Originally Posted by drew

Winnipeg Square - the gift that keeps on giving.

Fill it in and building skywalks. Problem solved.

[drew]

Even just filling it in will be costly and complicated.

FU 1970s city planning.

[pegster]

Originally Posted by cheswick

Mayor wants it open by July 1 2025.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manit...sing-1.7136681

And the property and development committee has voted unanimously in support: https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/br...annually-mayor

It certainly seems like Gillingham has the votes on council.

[FactaNV]

Originally Posted by drew

Even just filling it in will be costly and complicated.

FU 1970s city planning.

It'll be waaay more costly to keep it. What's lost is several vacant storefronts and a hair salon and a dollar store. Compensate them for relocation costs and some damages and fill er up. Skywalks make more sense anyways as it keeps all of the indoor paths at the same grade across downtown.

[peg]

They have been very quiet on what will happen to the concourse itself other than it'll be 'decommissioned'.

I honestly see them kicking all the tenants out and mothballing it for the foreseeable future with minimal maintenance to avoid it from failing.... (new abandoned location coming?) The least cost now but probably be very costly in the future.

I think that they want to avoid the traffic issues from the concourse and are kicking the can down the road for a future council so to speak...

[plrh]

Originally Posted by drew

Even just filling it in will be costly and complicated.

FU 1970s city planning.

I can't wait for the tender. I would kill to see the record drawings now. Does anyone know who the original engineer was?
My rough estimate is $15m to abandon with stabilized fill (without seeing any drawings). The only sewer connection is just a couple of floor drains. The biggest issue is abandoning the accesses. They will probably redesign the surface works for the whole area at the same time, so the bill will go up.

[1ajs]

its about the sticker shock and not realy understanding this is a failure of the planners getting cocky on ideas and civic government reacting to sticker shock at end of the day its the same cost to abandoned it then it is to fix in the long run from what im seeing

[Hecate]

Honestly this is pathetic. We can’t afford to fix the concourse? That relief down there is epic. The ugly ass skywalks are blight on portage avenue, now you want them on main? Everything should be easily accessible tunnels.

I do like the opening of portage and main, but closing the concourse is dumb. All the businesses down there will lose business as a result.

Dumb.

[peg]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

its about the sticker shock and not realy understanding this is a failure of the planners getting cocky on ideas and civic government reacting to sticker shock at end of the day its the same cost to abandoned it then it is to fix in the long run from what im seeing

agreed... we made this investment... did we not know this was coming? lol

(For the record, I want P&M open!!! But I also think that abandoning the concourse is a waste).

[borkborkbork]

The $73M doesn't get us barrier-free access, right?

It just maintains what's currently there: An inaccessible concourse that is dependent on elevators that are sometimes functional and sometimes not, that rely on accessible access through private buildings with limited hours, and then the concourse itself which has insufficient lighting, wayfinding, edgings and surfaces, etc.

This sounds like throwing good money after bad.

[bomberjet]

Originally Posted by plrh

I can't wait for the tender. I would kill to see the record drawings now. Does anyone know who the original engineer was?
My rough estimate is $15m to abandon with stabilized fill (without seeing any drawings). The only sewer connection is just a couple of floor drains. The biggest issue is abandoning the accesses. They will probably redesign the surface works for the whole area at the same time, so the bill will go up.

There is at least one drawing showing the circus here. Item 3, specifically in attachment B which looks at the membrane.

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Thanks!
http://clkapps.winnipeg.ca/DMIS/perm...240307(RM)PD-7

So let me get this straight. Spend $73 million and still not letting people walk across the street. And the street layout not really even set-up to accommodate that in the future. What a waste of effort.

Note the council report does mention cost sharing with the land owners.

Maybe a mod could move this convo to the P&M thread.

[drew]

Originally Posted by Hecate

Honestly this is pathetic. We can’t afford to fix the concourse? That relief down there is epic. The ugly ass skywalks are blight on portage avenue, now you want them on main? Everything should be easily accessible tunnels.

I do like the opening of portage and main, but closing the concourse is dumb. All the businesses down there will lose business as a result.

Dumb.

This type of underground infrastructure in Winnipeg has proven itself to be a terrible idea as we are seeing this play out.

We have terrible soil conditions. Terrible climatic pressures. And a terribly limited fiscal capacity at the best of times.

This terrible trifecta means that yes, sometimes we just can't have nice things. Above ground or bust from here on out.

[1ajs]

40+ year old roof membrane leaking underground aww u guys sure its not just cause its old has nothing to do with soil conditions all roofs leak as they age

cant be that hard to do it they built it in the 70's with out ripping the whole street up so i dunno why we cant do that now

also hearing simlar number to decomsion vs repair hows that even make sens

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by drew

This type of underground infrastructure in Winnipeg has proven itself to be a terrible idea as we are seeing this play out.

We have terrible soil conditions. Terrible climatic pressures. And a terribly limited fiscal capacity at the best of times.

This terrible trifecta means that yes, sometimes we just can't have nice things. Above ground or bust from here on out.

If we had an above ground sewer system I could see your point, but we don’t. This all comes down to neglect and incompetence.

[asher__jo]

Originally Posted by Hecate

Honestly this is pathetic. We can’t afford to fix the concourse? That relief down there is epic. The ugly ass skywalks are blight on portage avenue, now you want them on main? Everything should be easily accessible tunnels.

I do like the opening of portage and main, but closing the concourse is dumb. All the businesses down there will lose business as a result.

Dumb.

Couldn't agree more! Winnipeg will make priority for extending Chief Peguis West, which is a redundant project with moderate traffic levels on Leila and close proximity to the Perimeter. The narrative needs to shift from can't afford to sensibly maintain the concourse AND open the intersection to pedestrians. This is Winnipeg exceptionalism, there's virtually nowhere else that does this (and no, a lack of freeways doesn't justify this). Let's remember the study that was done to consider opening the intersection to pedestrians; it wasn't anything extreme, simply a few minutes. Reopening the intersection will also make converting lanes for BRT even more of an easier buy. Less vehicle conflicts with pedestrians will also mitigate the impact of a normal intersection.
I'd love for their to be a roundabout, but the width doesn't seem feasible. Maybe at Broadway and Main, also St Mary's and Marion.