Winnipeg City Transit/Rapid Transit

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by CoryB

What ONE advantage does LRT have which cannot be matched by BRT?

should read the column....LRT, because of its elevated user experience, has proven to inspire significantly more spinoff private development and it grows ridership to a much greater extent than buses by diversifying who finds it attractive. It is much more effective at getting people to leave their cars at home....the proportion of people who use trains by choice is much higher than those who use buses, even in a rapid configuration.

It is also faster, higher capacity and more schedule reliable....which is what the primary lines on the new high frequency transit model will be dependent on.

[borkborkbork]

Originally Posted by trueviking

that large amount of parking should have been large amounts of housing.

Isn't this because the lots are all basically under hydro's transmission ROW? I mean, it would be better to have a tower instead of 400 spots of parking, but you can't build anything other than parks or parking lots under Hydro's giant transmission lines...

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by esquire

Also, as a sidenote, I find it interesting that we debated LRT and BRT all those years (and continue to, I guess) but we never included trams in the discussion. I wonder if that might have delivered most of the benefits of LRT with the simplicity and reduced expense of using existing streets/rights-of-way. Anyone who has lived in or visited Europe has probably ridden trams extensively and I can tell you I was certainly impressed by the level of service they provided.

the new high frequency transit model being implemented is trams...they will run down the middle of portage avenue and main street...along the curb lane of other routes....this is precisely why rail should be considered now more than ever....also the reason it will be significantly less expensive than the busway in a field they have already built

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by borkborkbork

Isn't this because the lots are all basically under hydro's transmission ROW? I mean, it would be better to have a tower instead of 400 spots of parking, but you can't build anything other than parks or parking lots under Hydro's giant transmission lines...

yeah, maybe....my point was that it should have been built where people live...if that route means nobody can ever live where the stations are, it seems like it was destined to fail.

I didn't really understand the colossal failure it would be at the time....i even defended the dogleg, but I admit, I was totally wrong. It is and always will be a lightly used, very expensive piece of infrastructure.

[kalabaw]

I've recently come back from Ottawa. I made sure to try their new LRT. I used to live there and couldn't help but feel proud as to how "big city" it feels like with the train added in the mix of public transit. There was a bit of envy too as I kept on wishing that Winnipeg will have our own train too.

I like how the trains are scheduled every 5 minutes, so you don't have to wait a long time should you miss a prior train. And I also like how integrated the buses are to the stations/trains too. Took the bus from airport to the easternmost O-train station, then hopped on the train to get to Rideau Centre and then took another bus to my accommodation in Hull. The experience was seamless and while I have the benefit of knowing Ottawa/Gatineau a bit, I think a tourist or a newbie there would really find it easy to use too. I also like that tickets / passes for OC Transpo and STO are interchangeable. So you don't have to worry about having different bus systems in two cities.

Speaking of Rideau Centre... I was so amazed at how different it looked now compared to when I lived there. And again, I envy Ottawa for having a good, clean, lively downtown mall. Rideau Street was also renovated / revitalized. They have increased the size of the sidewalk, created a bus and a bike lane and reduced the size of the lane for cars. The whole stretch of Rideau fronting the Bay and Rideau Centre felt really lively. Why can't we have these nice things in our city?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by kalabaw

I've recently come back from Ottawa. I made sure to try their new LRT. I used to live there and couldn't help but feel proud as to how "big city" it feels like with the train added in the mix of public transit. There was a bit of envy too as I kept on wishing that Winnipeg will have our own train too.

I like how the trains are scheduled every 5 minutes, so you don't have to wait a long time should you miss a prior train. And I also like how integrated the buses are to the stations/trains too. Took the bus from airport to the easternmost O-train station, then hopped on the train to get to Rideau Centre and then took another bus to my accommodation in Hull. The experience was seamless and while I have the benefit of knowing Ottawa/Gatineau a bit, I think a tourist or a newbie there would really find it easy to use too. I also like that tickets / passes for OC Transpo and STO are interchangeable. So you don't have to worry about having different bus systems in two cities.

Speaking of Rideau Centre... I was so amazed at how different it looked now compared to when I lived there. And again, I envy Ottawa for having a good, clean, lively downtown mall. Rideau Street was also renovated / revitalized. They have increased the size of the sidewalk, created a bus and a bike lane and reduced the size of the lane for cars. The whole stretch of Rideau fronting the Bay and Rideau Centre felt really lively. Why can't we have these nice things in our city?

Portage Place used to be nice and clean and full of stores too at one point

But that said, a lot of the things you pointed out can be accomplished with BRT too. High frequency service is great, but it can certainly be done with buses.

[WinCitySparky]

Hey I’m out of the loop, what are they building at Union Station right now, with the crane and hoarding?

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by esquire

Portage Place used to be nice and clean and full of stores too at one point

But that said, a lot of the things you pointed out can be accomplished with BRT too. High frequency service is great, but it can certainly be done with buses.

Buses will always be buses. If the point is to do the minimum and move around people who already take transit, then buses are fine.

I’m tired of doing the minimum.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by trueviking

Buses will always be buses. If the point is to do the minimum and move around people who already take transit, then buses are fine.

I’m tired of doing the minimum.

Pretty much, it’s this mentality of doing the minimum that’s got us in this perpetual downer winnipeger state of mind. Could you imagine if Duff Roblin had been out to do the minimum, the city would’ve been destroyed in 97. Vision can be a valuable thing

[cllew]

Originally Posted by WinCitySparky

Hey I’m out of the loop, what are they building at Union Station right now, with the crane and hoarding?

would it be this from Merx?

Winnipeg’s Union Station is a large, Heritage, Beaux-Arts-style railway terminal constructed in 1908 and is located at 123 Main Street in downtown Winnipeg, Manitoba. Located behind the main station, the 214m long by 43,4m wide Train Shed is a separate exterior structure built atop a partial steel framed bridge that was built in 1911 and is also a Heritage-designated building. The Train Shed has two levels: the Annex (basement) houses the Passenger Concourse and VIA Rail’s Offices; the Track Shed Roof houses the Winnipeg Train Museum and Passenger Platforms. As part of this project, VIA plans to proceed with the following scope:

Annex concrete slab and structural repairs;
Annex’s CN Space strip-down to base building;
New demising wall between CN and VIA space; and
Passenger Platforms 3 and 4 replacement (Train Shed section only).

***

I believe that this is the project that was going to evict the Rail Museum at the end of Dec 2021

[kalabaw]

Originally Posted by esquire

Portage Place used to be nice and clean and full of stores too at one point

But that said, a lot of the things you pointed out can be accomplished with BRT too. High frequency service is great, but it can certainly be done with buses.

Yeah I heard that about Portage Place. Unfortunately, it never recovered. I experienced Rideau Centre in its not so good state so it was such a surprise to see how it transformed to what it is now. They even acquired the building beside it to build another department store. When they lost Sears, everyone thought it was the end of downtown shopping for Ottawa. But Sears was replaced by Nordstrom, they now have Simon's and the Bay is still alive and kicking there.

I have a slight preference for LRT as I think it is aesthetically more pleasing. However, as long as we could have an improved public transportation system here, I will be okay with either a bus or a train.

[WinCitySparky]

Originally Posted by cllew

I believe that this is the project that was going to evict the Rail Museum at the end of Dec 2021

Ahh right, now I’m remembering something about this from a while back, that would make sense, thanks!

[Biff]

Originally Posted by CoryB

In Winnipeg dares to say New Flyer, remember HQ is here and their products are made here, isn't good enough for the Winnipeg the Preimer and Mayor better heads over to the New Flyer plant in Transcona to personally hand out layoff notices to the estimated 8000 people that company employees. (Yes not all are Winnipeg based). To move away from New Flyer transit buses locally sends a strong single to every other jurisdiction looking to purchase their own public transit vehicles that they too should take New Flyer off their list. Also since when is it okay for our governments to say to a large local employer we don't want your product but will instead spend the tax dollars from your company and your employees on buying products from an out of province competitor?

I'm not sure I understand this line of thinking. No one said we would move away from New Flyer. Even if we got a full build out of LRT...say 4 or 5 lines as major backbones, the majority of transit would still be buses. It is like that in every city that has LRT. Buses would serve the high capacity LRT lines. That is how those systems work. Then we could remove the hundreds of buses that choke Portage, Main, Henderson, St Mary's Regent etc.

Sounds like the perfect system to me. Toronto, New York, Chicago, London, Tokyo all still have buses.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by trueviking

Buses will always be buses. If the point is to do the minimum and move around people who already take transit, then buses are fine.

I’m tired of doing the minimum.

In what way is the bus system inadequate though, in terms of its primary role of moving people around the city? It seems to do a good job. It's not like the buses are so clogged with no room for more frequencies such that only high capacity LRT trains would do. There is room to expand. We can and do have higher speed corridors without having to bring in another mode.

I am starting to wonder if people see LRTs in other cities with fewer social problems and think that we will have similarly clean and shiny LRT trains without the riff raff on the bus. But judging by what's gone on in other cities, I have no reason to believe that a LRT in Winnipeg would be any different than what those places are experiencing with people camping out or getting up to mayhem on trains and in stations.

Originally Posted by cllew

would it be this from Merx?

Winnipeg’s Union Station is a large, Heritage, Beaux-Arts-style railway terminal constructed in 1908 and is located at 123 Main Street in downtown Winnipeg, Manitoba. Located behind the main station, the 214m long by 43,4m wide Train Shed is a separate exterior structure built atop a partial steel framed bridge that was built in 1911 and is also a Heritage-designated building. The Train Shed has two levels: the Annex (basement) houses the Passenger Concourse and VIA Rail’s Offices; the Track Shed Roof houses the Winnipeg Train Museum and Passenger Platforms. As part of this project, VIA plans to proceed with the following scope:

Annex concrete slab and structural repairs;
Annex’s CN Space strip-down to base building;
New demising wall between CN and VIA space; and
Passenger Platforms 3 and 4 replacement (Train Shed section only).

***

I believe that this is the project that was going to evict the Rail Museum at the end of Dec 2021

That's interesting. It looks like work is under way. I would be very curious to see some plans or renderings of what VIA is planning to do. I assume that platforms 1 and 2 will be completely decommissioned in anticipation of putting through the BRT route?

[optimusREIM]

^my main beef with busses is how unpredictable they are in terms of timing. That could have more to do with the management and the fact that they run on shared roadways though

[rivercity]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

^my main beef with busses is how unpredictable they are in terms of timing. That could have more to do with the management and the fact that they run on shared roadways though

Agreed. They get stuck in rush hour, get stacked on one another and the transit priority lights don't actually trigger when buses get close to an intersection.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by rivercity

Agreed. They get stuck in rush hour, get stacked on one another and the transit priority lights don't actually trigger when buses get close to an intersection.

But that is an issue related to right of way design, it doesn't hinge on road vs. rail. You can cheap out and build a crappy LRT system just the same way that you can build a cheap and crappy BRT line. Switching to LRT doesn't guarantee that everything will be done right, it is susceptible to the same value engineering pitfalls... if you run LRT on Graham Ave., for instance, the same problems will affect LRT trains. There is nothing technical preventing the construction of a first class, exclusive ROW BRT system that delivers substantially the same level of service as LRT.

[rivercity]

Fair point. I was more pointing out the pitfalls of the current half assed BRT/existing diamond lanes

[Riverman]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

^The existing BRT line can still be converted to LRT or Tramway at any time. It's not like it would require a complete overhaul of our existing system just simply add rail lines to the transitway.

No. Rail stock is many, times heavier than busses. The existing roadbed is not built heavily enough and neither is the bridge over Bishop. It would indeed require a complete overhaul. And a carhouse.

[bomberjet]

Nah. It's fine for rail. Heavy freight trains run on 1' of c base and 1' of rock ballast below the tie.