Winnipeg Retail

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by Biff

It is not a Winnipeg specific thing.

Can we get this scrolling across the top of every Winnipeg forum, preferably in huge flashing letters?

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by Biff

I am currently in Chicago. Lots or for lease signs on Michigan Ave (Magnificent Mile). A lot of the stores I remember being here 5 years ago are gone.

It is not a Winnipeg specific thing.

One thing Winnipeg could do better is police presence. Police cruisers on most street corners. Some here will say that sounds terrible, like a police state, but You feel very safe wandering around. Very little visible panhandling. Zero encampments, very clean. Constant cleaning happening.

Every time I have been it has felt very safe and clean.

I was also there the past week and a half and second those observations. Another thing that Chicago has done very well which I noted when I was on the architecture boat tour (highly recommend btw) is that they have done a fabulous job with their river walk. Apparently a condition that is placed on riverfront developments is that they will construct a section of riverwalk along their frontage. Seems reasonable to me. But I digress, despite the fact that there may be vacancies on the mag mile, there are many factors that play into that. I would also note that it is still a major retail street. Winnipeg simply has nothing like it. One block of retail high street is not that hard to do in a city of almost a million. Many small towns out-shine Winnipeg in that regard. I know Chi-Wpg is comparing apples to oranges, but the entire city down there is filled with retail high streets. Despite the deterministic prognostications of some forumers here, bricks and mortar retail will never truly die, and there will always be a healthy market for it. I know that a huge number of younger people in my age bracket are still avid shoppers, and not the online variety...

[Biff]

In my conversations with the major real estate and leasing companies in Winnipeg, retail is doing very well in Winnipeg. It just is in poor shape downtown. Retail vacancy in the suburbs is very low. The malls are doing much better now too. I think the issues that malls are facing is not so much attracting retailers or retaining retailers but more in the relatively high failure of some major retailers post Covid.

I agree that although Chicago is on a different scale...9+ million vs just under 1 million here, there are lessons to be learned regarding downtown retail, the river walk, safety and cleanliness from them. They also have crappy winters (I know, not quite as bad) but similar scenarios.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

Despite the deterministic prognostications of some forumers here, bricks and mortar retail will never truly die, and there will always be a healthy market for it. I know that a huge number of younger people in my age bracket are still avid shoppers, and not the online variety...

Looking forward to your plans to open a bricks and mortar store in downtown Winnipeg to prove there is a still a market for that and then your six month report after it opens.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by CoryB

Looking forward to your plans to open a bricks and mortar store in downtown Winnipeg to prove there is a still a market for that and then your six month report after it opens.

I don't want to sound harsh, but you seem as though you have a vested interest in the failure of physical retail stores. How big is your stake in Amazon?

[WinCitySparky]

Nah he’s just got a vested interest in always being right

[trueviking]

its ridiculous to believe bricks and mortar retail will go away...some sectors are evolving (electronics) but it will never go away and is alive and well in cities everywhere....

pointing at downtown Winnipeg to prove bricks and mortar retail is dead is not a strong argument.....we just built a freaking 1980's shopping mall FFS.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by Biff

I agree that although Chicago is on a different scale...9+ million vs just under 1 million here, there are lessons to be learned regarding downtown retail, the river walk, safety and cleanliness from them. They also have crappy winters (I know, not quite as bad) but similar scenarios.

i felt the same in saskatoon for what its worth.

[thebasketballgeek]

They really need too take busses off Graham ASAP and realign the bus routes. We also need a N/S high street in DT that is closed off to cars, has protected bike lanes, and that intersects with Graham. My suggestion would be close Fort off to cars because of its proximity to Main and has the ability to extent to Albert while barely having any traffic already. Any new builds on both of these streets should be capped off at 12 stories to keep the streets “human scaled” with most buildings being closer to 6 storeys.

After visiting Montreal for a month, it was clear the most important aspect to improve vibrancy is by investing in the public realm. By that I mean little things like public art installations, street festivals, using colourful pavers rather then paved asphalt, murals, flowerbeds as road diets, outdoor workout areas for body weight exercises like pull up bars and dips, street vendors, little patios, pop up basketball courts, children drawing on the road etc… Simply put, the more things there are to do on a street means more people will use said street.

I could keep going but the fact of the matter is Winnipeg’s public realm outside of the Forks and maybe the Waterfront is atrocious. The city is currently allergic to forming an identity. As long as we are in an identity crisis Downtown retail will never thrive. We also are terrible at advertising our strengths but that’s another topic.

My hint: just focus on our strong Indigenous culture, multiculturalism, and showcase why Downtown Winnipeg is a unique place that people will go out of their way to visit, rather then forcing themselves to bypass the core in their 2 ton steel boxes.

We don’t have to reinvent the wheel to make DT retail survive and even thrive. We just as a city gotta stop having our head up our asses, check our ego and stop thinking solutions can only be “Made in Manitoba.” There are THOUSANDS of case studies around the globe in reinventing city centres maybe it wouldn’t hurt to utilize them.

[esquire]

I don't know. I think I have come to terms with downtown retail being absolutely dead. Forget Chicago, downtown Winnipeg retail is on par with a place like Moose Jaw in terms of scale and selection. Their biggest downtown retailer is also Giant Tiger.

It is a bit sad that we can't even match downtown Regina or Saskatoon levels of urban vitality when it comes to retail activity, but it is what it is. The people have spoken. To paraphrase The Weakerthans, downtown retail is basically a roster of who's left and who's leaving.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by esquire

I don't know. I think I have come to terms with downtown retail being absolutely dead. Forget Chicago, downtown Winnipeg retail is on par with a place like Moose Jaw in terms of scale and selection. Their biggest downtown retailer is also Giant Tiger.

It is a bit sad that we can't even match downtown Regina or Saskatoon levels of urban vitality when it comes to retail activity, but it is what it is. The people have spoken. To paraphrase The Weakerthans, downtown retail is basically a roster of who's left and who's leaving.

The Guess Who suck, the Jets were lousy anyways.....

I hate to nitpick this sentiment, but this is so Winnipeg. It's kind of [revise that *very*] defeatist. Winnipeg is obviously its own place, with some more unique challenges to face. That said, it's really not so radically different a place than anywhere else. I'd wager even Detroit is doing better than us these days downtown...

I'm not big on giving up on my hometown. That said, I think what a lot of young people do who are completely checked out is just leave. Those who really have high hopes and ambitions like me, would rather live in a place that doesn't just abandon its potential but at least makes an attempt to actualize it. I'm not there today, but the reason that we face a huge hill to climb is that the young people would rather live somewhere that's already there, the old people are too resistent to change, and the remainder are too apathetic to care, let alone do anything concrete.

We also suffer from spineless politicians, gluttonous bureaucrats, and leaders that lack in either or both of vision and moral fiber.

[esquire]

^ It's not giving up but rather picking your spots. It's not the end of the world if downtown is meant to be something other than a retail hub. It really hasn't been a retail hub since the late 90s, when Eaton's closed down. Whatever retail was left has been pretty well running on fumes ever since, and now those fumes are running low. That is what we as Winnipeggers decided through our collective actions, and the market has responded accordingly.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

I don't want to sound harsh, but you seem as though you have a vested interest in the failure of physical retail stores. How big is your stake in Amazon?

No vested interest in retail in any way. The global trend is for things to move online as it lowers the cost of goods to the consumer. Whatever future there is for bricks and mortar is going to heavily lean into local and independent operators often buying items for close to what anyone can get them for online and selling at a markup over the online costs. It is going to be an extremely tough dream to chase. Some might succeed but lots will fail trying.

The challenge if you say "but that's not for me" is how many people need to be aware of the idea and said that same thing before someone takes a chance. If you want bricks and mortar retail you need to start now and heavily focus your spending exclusively at those small, local, independent places.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by CoryB

No vested interest in retail in any way. The global trend is for things to move online as it lowers the cost of goods to the consumer. Whatever future there is for bricks and mortar is going to heavily lean into local and independent operators often buying items for close to what anyone can get them for online and selling at a markup over the online costs. It is going to be an extremely tough dream to chase. Some might succeed but lots will fail trying.

The challenge if you say "but that's not for me" is how many people need to be aware of the idea and said that same thing before someone takes a chance. If you want bricks and mortar retail you need to start now and heavily focus your spending exclusively at those small, local, independent places.

I can count on one hand the amount of times I've ordered physical items online in the last 5 years. I have never, and strongly am against buying any clothing online. The exceptions have been for times when an item or reasonable alternative is not available here.

That said, I also don't think that what you're saying is correct either. Businesses that want to focus on online sales will do so, those that want to focus on bricks and mortar will do so. There will be winners and losers in both spaces. There will always be a strong contingent of people that prefer having at least some level of show room to visit. As well as a preference for physically handling the product etc, there is a big group of folks who are committed to supporting local products too. There may be trend towards more online retail, but that doesn't mean that physical retail must die. What I, and many people are saying, is despite your insistence, there is still a big demand for the ability to shop in bricks and mortar stores and there always will be. This is evidenced by the amount of retailers still opening new retail stores...

[esquire]

^ I agree with optimus. I have become much more of an online shopper since the pandemic. But while it is a godsend for certain items (e.g. no more driving around town to find a specific obscure light bulb in hopes I can find it, I just order off bulbs.com and it shows up at my house), I am reluctant to rely on it for more subjective purchases like clothes and shoes, for instance. In that case I want to see them, maybe try them on, etc.

Maybe bricks and mortar retail will never dominate again the way it did in those years between the demise of mail order catalogue shopping (Eaton's, Sears, etc.) and online shopping when mall culture peaked, but it's hard to imagine that it will ever be wiped away entirely. There will be at least a couple of malls left for years to come, in addition to the various big box stores.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

That said, I also don't think that what you're saying is correct either. Businesses that want to focus on online sales will do so, those that want to focus on bricks and mortar will do so. There will be winners and losers in both spaces.

The trend over the last five years on retail in North America has seen many large chains completely close up, often through bankruptcy. In some cases like TopShop they emerge from the ashes as online only brands. Some like Bench swirl around in bankruptcy, close most of their stores and emerge with a new partner. Others like Aeropostale get bought out of bankruptcy and then operated as a "going concern" by their former landlords rather than having mall space sit vacant. Others still like Addition Elle disappear completely.

Then there is the whole group behind Sunrise Records and other retails that sees the void being left by bankruptcy with distressed manufacturers having no channels for goods in production and rushes in to capture and last gasps of dying niche bricks and mortar.

Sure there is lots of growth in off price retail such as Winners, Marshalls and ROSS but that is really the only segment of the larger retail market that has actively been growing on the past approximately five years. And what a surprise as their supply chain is effectively buying merchandise between written off in other channels and trying to make a profit by selling those bulk purchases for a higher net than what they paid.

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

There will always be a strong contingent of people that prefer having at least some level of show room to visit. As well as a preference for physically handling the product etc, there is a big group of folks who are committed to supporting local products too. There may be trend towards more online retail, but that doesn't mean that physical retail must die. What I, and many people are saying, is despite your insistence, there is still a big demand for the ability to shop in bricks and mortar stores and there always will be. This is evidenced by the amount of retailers still opening new retail stores...

I think you are extremely over estimating the preference for bricks and mortar over the amount of price sensitivity in that same group of people. The recent food inflation shows that given a choice between a higher cost and looking at alternatives most people are willing to take alternatives if they can avoid higher prices. Is it worth paying 50% more for a shirt you can buy in a bricks and mortar store v ordering the exact same shirt online from a warehouse? The reality is the majority of consumer items already are flowing through a warehouse. The pricing then includes shipping to a bricks and mortar store, rent on the space, staff wages for that store, eventual write downs on goods that couldn't be sold at the full price, shrink due to things like damaged goods and theft, etc. The cost of that last mile, the bricks and mortar stores, adds a lot to the cost of goods. This is an old example but I remember looking at the cost of music CDs in the 90s. Of the bricks and mortar cost about 50% of that cost was within the portion of the distribution chain after the warehouse level.

Following that model if we have two customers and we give them the exact same amount of money and say "buy some shirts". Bob goes online and buys two shirts with the money. Charlie goes to bricks and mortar and comes back with one shirt. All the shirts are exactly the same, including same brand, fabric, etc. That in a nutshell is why the online transition is happening. It doesn't matter if Bob prefers bricks and mortar stores or Charlie thinks it is unfair he pays more because of his choice of shopping in person. Ultimately the cost of bricks and mortar stores is going to be passed on to those customers that want that channel over online and this isn't some far future thing either, it is already happening. Every notice how stuff is cheaper on places like Amazon than in person or that Amazon has a lot more depth of choices than in person?

Winnipeg tends to lag behind other markets in bricks and mortar retail. In the past five years we have seen national chains closing grocery stores with no one stepping in to fill those voids, some stores have become gyms, part of the former Sears store in Polo, Winnipeg's top level mall, was converted to non-retail space, Hudsons Bay permanently closed what was once their national flagship store, Buy Buy Baby and Bath and Beyond both closed up and left sizable vacancies, Portage Place has effectively stopped having any retail. And all that just scratches the surface of the large trend at play.

Lots of posters here bemoan the lack of retail in downtown Winnipeg. It is a simple thing to change, go open your own shop and help change the trend. I am sure the repeated failures of others will have no influence on your own success.

[thurmas]

Retailers that offer a good are declining. Reatailers that provide a service or experience ie barbershops gyms or restaurants ect.. can still do well. I mean forget downtown whats going to fill the massive lowes store on kenaston with lowes leaving Canada?

[Boreal]

Originally Posted by thurmas

Retailers that offer a good are declining. Reatailers that provide a service or experience ie barbershops gyms or restaurants ect.. can still do well. I mean forget downtown whats going to fill the massive lowes store on kenaston with lowes leaving Canada?

Dollarama flagship...

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by CoryB

Lots of posters here bemoan the lack of retail in downtown Winnipeg. It is a simple thing to change, go open your own shop and help change the trend. I am sure the repeated failures of others will have no influence on your own success.

It makes me laugh when people use this argument...why don't you just use your own money....ha ha.

Those of us who lament the lack of urban storefront retail in Winnipeg, do so because they see that it exists in almost every other city in Canada....in our city, the manifestation of bricks and mortar came in the form of one of the only indoor shopping malls built in Canada this century.....bricks and mortar isn't dead and never will be....its just about how your city delivers it.

Of course downtown retail is dead....the entire downtown is built for driving through, not providing an experience that would make people want to linger and shop....it is a fundamental reason for opening portage and main.....hilarious that you argue that we should barricade people from the sidewalks in downtown and also argue that sidewalk retail doesn't work downtown.....there might be a connection between the two.

[esquire]

^ Even if bricks and mortar retail declines by half, there will still be an awful lot of it left. But you would have to think population increases would offset at least some of those losses to online.

That said, I wonder if some businesses might be happy to move to online shopping... no shoplifting, no need for pricy retail commercial space, less overhead generally.