[Saint John] Fundy Quay (South Market Wharf) | 19-6s | 70m-26m | U/C

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

That’s my bad, I didn’t intend to cause any confusion, I was using underground parking broadly meaning it’s under the building and currently they are pouring concrete below grade, not in any prescriptive or literal way.

Yes much of the parking structure will be above the final grade of the site, at least according to the drawings available to us now.

No problem. It just confused me for a moment and made me think there might be one level below grade and the other above.

It's too bad they aren't a proper underground garage for all the buildings. I assume it is due to the proximity to the water rendering such a design unfeasible? (or is it just a issue with costs making it uneconomical?)

[sailor734]

moved to Uptown SJ thread

[DyAm00394]

[darkharbour]

As the webcam shows, it is very exciting to see some walls going above grade on the first building on the old Coast Guard site after 15+ years of waiting!

[DyAm00394]

A new article interview with the Vice President Of Development for the Fundy Harbour Group.

“Construction underway of first Fundy Quay building on waterfront.

After some stops and starts, the public can now see piles driven and cement pouring at the Fundy Quay construction site on Saint John’s waterfront.

What’s really going to surprise them is when they see the six-story glass and metal structure, currently under construction, rise up over the water, says Chris Elias, vice president of development for Fundy Harbour Group.

“I feel like the amount of glass and southwest views from the southwest building are going to surprise people,” Elias said. “We’re looking at almost a full-height glass curtain wall on the south and west side of the building, so all those units on the waterfront are going to have amazing views.”

Fundy Harbour Group, owned by Dr. David Elias, first announced plans for a multi-building development on former Coast Guard land on Water Street in 2021. The first to be constructed is a six-storey 79-unit apartment building on the southwest of the site with ground-floor retail and a rooftop terrace, and Elias says they’ve poured concrete slabs for the first floor of the building’s underground parkade.

“That just went in last week, so that’s a big milestone,” he said. “There’s been a lot of work, probably we’re looking at over 10 months of construction just to get to where we are right now, between piles, site infrastructure, all the main water lines and electrical coming down the centre of the site.”

Once the parkade is in, the “hockey-stick shaped” southwest building will take form, he said, with a wall that borders the Pugsley Wharf slip and a wall that borders the Harbour Passage extension. He said they hope to have residents occupy the building by the first or second quarter of 2026.

“It’s exciting to see things coming up out of the ground, but it’s also exciting knowing how much work has gone on under the ground getting this site ready for vertical improvements,” Elias said. He said the first concrete wall is being poured next week, and there’ll be a “suspended concrete slab up there” which will be visible at ground level.

The $300 million project was conceived to include three residential buildings, a hotel and a civic/cultural space, and Elias said that is still the plan. Much of the work has been done on the general site infrastructure, he said, saying that once the infrastructure is in place the construction for future buildings will be “streamlined.”

After the master plan for the project was devised, developers conceived of a 16-storey, 165-unit building in the southeast corner, but in 2022 Elias told Brunswick News they were opting to retool that design and proceed with the southwest building. On Wednesday, he said there was price escalation in construction costs and they considered the logistical concerns of carrying on with phased construction.

“From a construction sequencing perspective, it made a lot more sense to start on the water … If we did it the opposite way, you’re building in front of a building that’s occupied,” he said. “It gave us the opportunity to set the tone for the site by starting with what will be our luxury building, and definitely the highest-end building on the site.”

The building design was the second to be approved, with an earlier design placed on hold. Elias said during construction of the southwest building, the development team is thinking ahead to running “models” on the next building.

When a community/cultural space had been suggested in 2021 and 2022, it drew speculation about the New Brunswick Museum, which at that time was looking for a home but has since settled on expanding the existing Douglas Ave. museum building. Elias said they are still planning for a cultural building on the site, but would need a partner.

“We obviously have the ability to pivot and adapt to the market or adapt to what we find works best for the site,” he said, saying hospitality studies show there’s a “good opportunity” for a hotel in the market as well.

Some of the labour force pressures driving price have “softened,” Elias said, saying they’ve gotten “really great trade feedback” on construction tenders. He said it’s been encouraging to see movement on interest rates after the Bank of Canada lowered interest rates last week, calling interest one of the biggest costs they had faced.

Now, he said, another challenge was finding lenders – with governments encouraging housing development in a hot market, there’s a high demand for construction financing. He said the Canada Mortgage Housing Corporation has warned builders of a “bottleneck” and delays in application processing for financial applications.

He said the end goal of 2032 was still a “feasible” timeline, saying there were factors out of the company’s control, such as how quickly they can find partners for retail, hotel and the cultural space.

“We obviously have the ability to pivot and adapt to the market or adapt to what we find works best for the site,” he said. With a wait list of at least 300 people for the 79-unit building, he said that they have confidence in the Saint John market that future buildings will be filled.

The firm also is in the midst of overhauls of the City Hall building, including the pedway to Market Square, and has a host of residential developments. Since the start of the Fundy Quay project, he said they’ve brought on 20 new staff, many returning New Brunswickers, he said.

Elias said the southwest building has exceeded their requirements for providing a portion of barrier-free accessible units, and said they are seeking a “high accessibility threshold.” While he said the company works with NB Housing in looking for opportunities to make housing affordable, he said there are more cost-effective ways than what’s going to be in the Fundy Quay unit.

“We are running those scenarios in every one of our building models to see if we can make those numbers work,” he said.

As part of the project, federal, provincial and municipal governments spent $27 million on restoring the seawall and raising the elevation of the site, as well as on the public space that will sit between the site and Market Square, Ihtoli-maqahamok– The Gathering Space.

Elias said the Gathering Space has been “great,” saying he’s been watching the site out of his office window and it’s “full of people all day every day.” He said the public space, including the Harbour Passage extension, “brings people to our door.”

The developers are making plans for how to “make that site vibrant” between the time that the first building is finished and additional buildings go up, Elias said, cost permitting, including a grassy “park-like” atmosphere or possible food truck or market programming.

He said seeing the whole site, and the next-door Area 506 Container Village, come to shape has been “a generational moment,” calling Saint John’s waterfront one of the best on the eastern seaboard.

“We’re getting feedback by seeing people interact with the water … that we didn’t have before,” he said. “As we do each building, we’ll continue to get that feedback … and take a thoughtful approach at creating a waterfront that’s the most dynamic in Atlantic Canada.”

https://tj.news/saint-john-south/fir...struction-site

[sailor734]

Hmmm. Lot's to ponder on. I'm a little surprised to hear that the first 6 story building will be the nicest with the other two being less of a luxury build. While it's obviously the best location (sunset views and unobstructed views out the harbour towards the bay) being only six floors would seem to take away from that. The west and south facing glass wall do sound nice though. and, I suppose being only 6 floors allows the upper floors of the other buildings to also have a view out the harbour.

Also sounds like the completion date is slipping a bit. Wasn't it originally 2030? (maybe I'm misremembering)

It seems like lots of stuff is still tentative but nice to hear they are still planning on a hotel. We could use something decent as both the main uptown offerings are getting long in the tooth......We had out of town family stay at the Hilton last week and they said the room was pretty shabby (dated 80's decor, sloppy caulking repairs in the bathroom, broken seal in one window so it was fogged up and a tear in the carpet. Sounds like it's overdue for a gut and refurb.

I'm not if the Delta has been reno'd in the last little while.....had someone stay there 5-6 years ago and was told it was pretty tired and not overly clean.....but maybe it's been refurbished since then. It is 50 years old after all.


Overall.....exciting to see action and it will be great to watch some walls go up.

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Hmmm. Lot's to ponder on. I'm a little surprised to hear that the first 6 story building will be the nicest with the other two being less of a luxury build. While it's obviously the best location (sunset views and unobstructed views out the harbour towards the bay) being only six floors would seem to take away from that. The west and south facing glass wall do sound nice though. and, I suppose being only 6 floors allows the upper floors of the other buildings to also have a view out the harbour.

Also sounds like the completion date is slipping a bit. Wasn't it originally 2030? (maybe I'm misremembering)

It seems like lots of stuff is still tentative but nice to hear they are still planning on a hotel. We could use something decent as both the main uptown offerings are getting long in the tooth......We had out of town family stay at the Hilton last week and they said the room was pretty shabby (dated 80's decor, sloppy caulking repairs in the bathroom, broken seal in one window so it was fogged up and a tear in the carpet. Sounds like it's overdue for a gut and refurb.

I'm not if the Delta has been reno'd in the last little while.....had someone stay there 5-6 years ago and was told it was pretty tired and not overly clean.....but maybe it's been refurbished since then. It is 50 years old after all.


Overall.....exciting to see action and it will be great to watch some walls go up.

They talked about a 10 year build out in 2022, so 2032 is still the same target. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-b...quay-1.6310630

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

They talked about a 10 year build out in 2022, so 2032 is still the same target. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-b...quay-1.6310630

Thanks, wasn’t sure on that. Somewhere I had gotten the idea it was by the end of the decade.

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Thanks, wasn’t sure on that. Somewhere I had gotten the idea it was by the end of the decade.

No problem!

As for the other points, I figure the higher-end first building is about financing on some level, perhaps trying to maximize the return on a smaller building first thing out the gate to help cashflow for the other phases.

Agreed about the hotel, it is a big issue in the core of the city, and a new hotel build would really help our ability to attract events and remain a destination. Getting more diversity of brands to promote competition would be helpful too, maybe attracting an Alt hotel for example.

[sailor734]

It should be interesting to see just how high end the first building will be.....Luxury or "luxury" by Saint John standards?

Here's a listing of Canadian hotel brands from 2023. I wonder who it might be?

Economy Brands
Rank Economy Hotels Rooms
1 Days Inn 104 8,149
2 Super 8 122 7,934
3 Travelodge 100 7,851
4 Motel 6 33 2,287
5
Microtel Inn & Suites
by Wyndham 26 2,265
6 Econo Lodge 41 2,071
7 Howard Johnson 18 1,207
8 Knights Inn 18 571
9 SureStay Plus 7 523
10 Rodeway Inn 9 510
Source: STR, compilation by Horwath HTL.


Upscale Brands
Rank Upscale Hotels Rooms
1 Delta Hotel 40 10,398
2 Courtyard by Marriott 35 5,917
3
Four Points by
Sheraton 34 4,964
4 DoubleTree by Hilton 22 4,897
5 Hilton Garden Inn 29 4,556
6
Residence Inn by
Marriott 25 3,594
7 Coast Hotels 30 3,368
8
Homewood Suites by
Hilton 23 2,644
9 Radisson by Choice 13 2,159
10 Ascend Collection 25 2,105
Source: STR, compilation by Horwath HTL.


Midscale Brands
Rank Midscale Hotels Rooms
1 Quality Inn 88 7,564
2 Ramada 75 7,154
3 Sandman 38 5,347
4 Best Western 58 4,835
5
Canadas Best Value
Inn 21 1,037
6 Lakeview 13 954
7 Wingate by Wyndham 8 822
8 Rodd Hotel 7 804
9 Baymont 6 403
10 Sleep Inn 4 246
Source: STR, compilation by Horwath HTL.

Upper Upscale Brands
Rank Upper Upscale Hotels Rooms
1 Sheraton Hotel 18 7,962
2 Marriott 16 5,733
3 Hilton 14 5,454
4 Westin 14 5,238
5 Sandman Signature 14 3,355
6 Autograph Collection 10 1,735
7 Hyatt Regency 3 1,399
8
Embassy Suites by
Hilton 4 1,240
9 Pan Pacific 4 1,116
10 Omni 2 600
Source: STR, compilation by Horwath HTL.


Upper Midscale Brands
Rank Upper Midscale Hotels Rooms
1 Holiday Inn Express 114 11,972
2 Best Western Plus 117 11,764
3 Comfort Inn 141 11,626
4 Holiday Inn 51 8,703
5 Hampton by Hilton 67 7,537
6
Fairfield Inn by
Marriott 30 3,388
7
TownePlace Suites by
Marriott 20 2,258
8
Trademark Collection
by Wyndham 15 1,941
9 Canalta Hotels 24 1,772
10 Quality 15 1,473
Source: STR, compilation by Horwath HTL.

Luxury Brands
Rank Luxury Hotels Rooms
1 Fairmont 19 9,673
2 InterContinental 2 941
3 JW Marriott 3 896
4 Four Seasons 3 715
5 W Hotel 2 406
6 Ritz-Carlton 2 392
7 Shangri-La 2 321
8 St. Regis 1 258
9 Sofitel 1 256
10 The Unbound
Collection 1 2

[Pugsley]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

No problem!

As for the other points, I figure the higher-end first building is about financing on some level, perhaps trying to maximize the return on a smaller building first thing out the gate to help cashflow for the other phases.

Agreed about the hotel, it is a big issue in the core of the city, and a new hotel build would really help our ability to attract events and remain a destination. Getting more diversity of brands to promote competition would be helpful too, maybe attracting an Alt hotel for example.

Agreed. I think he's being very strategic and it makes sense. They are probably looking at demand for luxury units, views, and more with each phase. For all we know, the other towers could be condo, if they think they can pull it off. The only way to assess this is doing it in phases and looking at demand. As for the hotel, it is common these days to make properties a combination of hotel and residences. I wouldn't be surprised that after phase 1 and 2, they make a judgement call on such a development. To be fair, the last time condos were built on the waterfront were in the 80s/90s and they didn't do as well as in other places. This could be a great pilot test on demand to assess if there is a market.

Overall, everything they are doing makes sense and will hopefully help boost demand!

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by Pugsley

Agreed. I think he's being very strategic and it makes sense. They are probably looking at demand for luxury units, views, and more with each phase. For all we know, the other towers could be condo, if they think they can pull it off. The only way to assess this is doing it in phases and looking at demand. As for the hotel, it is common these days to make properties a combination of hotel and residences. I wouldn't be surprised that after phase 1 and 2, they make a judgement call on such a development. To be fair, the last time condos were built on the waterfront were in the 80s/90s and they didn't do as well as in other places. This could be a great pilot test on demand to assess if there is a market.

Overall, everything they are doing makes sense and will hopefully help boost demand!

I agree that condos would seem like a no-brainer on this prime waterfront site. However, the fact that condo developments have struggled here repeatedly in the past make this much less of likely outcome.

Besides, didn't someone say something about how the ownership structure of the land at Fundy Quay makes selling condos either difficult or actually impossible.? Don't remember the details but I think I read or heard something to that effect.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

It should be interesting to see just how high end the first building will be.....Luxury or "luxury" by Saint John standards?

Here's a listing of Canadian hotel brands from 2023. I wonder who it might be?

Economy Brands
Rank Economy Hotels Rooms
1 Days Inn 104 8,149
2 Super 8 122 7,934
3 Travelodge 100 7,851
4 Motel 6 33 2,287
5
Microtel Inn & Suites
by Wyndham 26 2,265
6 Econo Lodge 41 2,071
7 Howard Johnson 18 1,207
8 Knights Inn 18 571
9 SureStay Plus 7 523
10 Rodeway Inn 9 510
Source: STR, compilation by Horwath HTL.


Upscale Brands
Rank Upscale Hotels Rooms
1 Delta Hotel 40 10,398
2 Courtyard by Marriott 35 5,917
3
Four Points by
Sheraton 34 4,964
4 DoubleTree by Hilton 22 4,897
5 Hilton Garden Inn 29 4,556
6
Residence Inn by
Marriott 25 3,594
7 Coast Hotels 30 3,368
8
Homewood Suites by
Hilton 23 2,644
9 Radisson by Choice 13 2,159
10 Ascend Collection 25 2,105
Source: STR, compilation by Horwath HTL.


Midscale Brands
Rank Midscale Hotels Rooms
1 Quality Inn 88 7,564
2 Ramada 75 7,154
3 Sandman 38 5,347
4 Best Western 58 4,835
5
Canadas Best Value
Inn 21 1,037
6 Lakeview 13 954
7 Wingate by Wyndham 8 822
8 Rodd Hotel 7 804
9 Baymont 6 403
10 Sleep Inn 4 246
Source: STR, compilation by Horwath HTL.

Upper Upscale Brands
Rank Upper Upscale Hotels Rooms
1 Sheraton Hotel 18 7,962
2 Marriott 16 5,733
3 Hilton 14 5,454
4 Westin 14 5,238
5 Sandman Signature 14 3,355
6 Autograph Collection 10 1,735
7 Hyatt Regency 3 1,399
8
Embassy Suites by
Hilton 4 1,240
9 Pan Pacific 4 1,116
10 Omni 2 600
Source: STR, compilation by Horwath HTL.


Upper Midscale Brands
Rank Upper Midscale Hotels Rooms
1 Holiday Inn Express 114 11,972
2 Best Western Plus 117 11,764
3 Comfort Inn 141 11,626
4 Holiday Inn 51 8,703
5 Hampton by Hilton 67 7,537
6
Fairfield Inn by
Marriott 30 3,388
7
TownePlace Suites by
Marriott 20 2,258
8
Trademark Collection
by Wyndham 15 1,941
9 Canalta Hotels 24 1,772
10 Quality 15 1,473
Source: STR, compilation by Horwath HTL.

Luxury Brands
Rank Luxury Hotels Rooms
1 Fairmont 19 9,673
2 InterContinental 2 941
3 JW Marriott 3 896
4 Four Seasons 3 715
5 W Hotel 2 406
6 Ritz-Carlton 2 392
7 Shangri-La 2 321
8 St. Regis 1 258
9 Sofitel 1 256
10 The Unbound
Collection 1 2

Definitely going to be the Park Hyatt.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Definitely going to be the Park Hyatt.

I like your certainty although I'm not sure where that comes from.

For my part I'm comfortable saying it's definitely NOT going to be a Four Seasons.

[adamuptownsj]

Not to feed a rumour mill but I've heard Hyatt was in discussions (for the NE building, not SE, which will be residential above the podium) from a couple people with peripheral involvement.

The ownership structure is... unique. Not sure if the land itself is still port-owned or what.

[Pugsley]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Not to feed a rumour mill but I've heard Hyatt was in discussions (for the NE building, not SE, which will be residential above the podium) from a couple people with peripheral involvement.

The ownership structure is... unique. Not sure if the land itself is still port-owned or what.

Then likely a Hyatt Place, like the one in Moncton. Though maybe an Andaz brand if it will have residences. I highly doubt it will be a Park Hyatt and certainly not a Four Seasons (though I'd love that). I think the highest we will ever go in terms of luxury market brands out east is Autograph Collection, which we have two of already: Algonquin Resort, and Muir in Halifax.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Not to feed a rumour mill but I've heard Hyatt was in discussions (for the NE building, not SE, which will be residential above the podium) from a couple people with peripheral involvement.

The ownership structure is... unique. Not sure if the land itself is still port-owned or what.

Hotels with condo residences above the hotel are certainly becoming more common in recent years. I know people in Vancouver who live above the Shangri-La Hotel on one of the upper floors of the tower.
I suppose the same thing could be done with residential rentals rather than condos.


I'll go out on a limb and predict that, along with Four Seasons, Fairmont and Ritz-Carlton, a Shangri-La isn't coming to SJ either

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

I like your certainty although I'm not sure where that comes from.

For my part I'm comfortable saying it's definitely NOT going to be a Four Seasons.

It comes from sarcasm lol, but that’s hard to convey online a lot of the time…

Montreal doesn’t even have a Park Hyatt yet, but it would sure be cool

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Pugsley

Then likely a Hyatt Place, like the one in Moncton. Though maybe an Andaz brand if it will have residences. I highly doubt it will be a Park Hyatt and certainly not a Four Seasons (though I'd love that). I think the highest we will ever go in terms of luxury market brands out east is Autograph Collection, which we have two of already: Algonquin Resort, and Muir in Halifax.

Hyatt Place would certainly be an achievable brand. Tapestry Collection by Hilton would be another, The Canvas Hotel in Moncton is a Tapestry Hotel.

[sailor734]

Might Marriott come in with a Marriott branded hotel? That's a different market niche than Delta and a direct Hilton competitor.