The New City Donut

[dc_denizen]

How are you adjusting for overall price level and cost of living differences between the us and Canada in those maps?

[memph]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

How are you adjusting for overall price level and cost of living differences between the us and Canada in those maps?

It's using $18,000 USD for the US and $18,000 CAD for Canada. Presumably the values of the currencies would be tied to such cost differences, although at the time of the respective censuses the currencies were relatively equal.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by memph

Toronto
Those are mostly apartments and public housing for areas in the core - except for Kensington Market (probably lots of room-mates? not sure...)

A lot of low income Chinese live in Kensington.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by memph

It's using $18,000 USD for the US and $18,000 CAD for Canada. Presumably the values of the currencies would be tied to such cost differences, although at the time of the respective censuses the currencies were relatively equal.

I would assume this accounts for much of the discrepancy. USD is currently worth around 35% more, which has been pretty typical throughout the decades.

While Canada undoubtedly has somewhat lower levels of income inequality, I would be surprised if it had "wealthier poor". It's probably more likely it has "less wealthy rich", as the U.S. is atypical from other first world nations on that end.

[James Bond Agent 007]

[memph]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I would assume this accounts for much of the discrepancy. USD is currently worth around 35% more, which has been pretty typical throughout the decades.

While Canada undoubtedly has somewhat lower levels of income inequality, I would be surprised if it had "wealthier poor". It's probably more likely it has "less wealthy rich", as the U.S. is atypical from other first world nations on that end.

Median income for the US' 100 most populated counties (134 million people) is about $30,900 USD.

Compared to major Canadian CMAs (2011 NHS)

Ottawa: $38,543
Calgary: $38,184
Edmonton: $37,243
Quebec: $32,777
Halifax: $32,078
Hamilton: $31,497
Winnipeg: $30,804
Toronto: $29,593
Vancouver: $28,726
Montreal: $28,306

Canada: $29,878
Didn't really expect the "big 3" to be at the bottom of the list like that, although the rankings change quite a lot if you look at average income.

I'm sure Canada has less wealthy rich, especially in the smaller cities like Winnipeg and Halifax, but even in cities like Ottawa, Edmonton, Montreal and Calgary. But I'm pretty sure that there's also less extreme poverty... And I suspect there's also less income segregation too. Virtually every census tract will have middle class people living in it.

[isaidso]

The Big 3 Canadian metros have long been in the bottom quartile of Canadian CMAs when it comes to median income. When you factor in a lower cost of living in smaller metros the wealth gap is quite noticeable. In places like Halifax, Ottawa, Regina etc. average people just feel better off, more affluent, less down trodden. Median family incomes in the Big 3 would suggest that perception reflects reality.

There's a reason many immigrants are choosing smaller metros over the traditional immigrant magnets of Vancouver, Montreal, and Toronto: the standard of living is generally higher.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by memph

Median income for the US' 100 most populated counties (134 million people) is about $30,900 USD.

Where are you coming up with this stuff?

Median U.S. household income in 2015 was around 57k USD. Obviously the median will be much higher in major metropolitan counties. In the largest, most prosperous U.S. metros, median income is usually somewhere between 70-90k.

Canada would need a median 77k income to have the same median as the U.S., though this doesn't really answer the question. We're looking at income cohorts and means, not medians, no? Means will undoubtedly be higher in the U.S., due to the higher proportion of high income cohorts.

As for the lowest income cohorts, 13.5% of the U.S. lives in poverty as of 2015.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/09/13/news/economy/median-income-census/

Originally Posted by memph

I'm sure Canada has less wealthy rich, especially in the smaller cities like Winnipeg and Halifax, but even in cities like Ottawa, Edmonton, Montreal and Calgary. But I'm pretty sure that there's also less extreme poverty... And I suspect there's also less income segregation too. Virtually every census tract will have middle class people living in it.

I think the first part is true, but I don't see data supporting the second part. I get that it "feels" right because Canada is overall somewhat more equal. But a country can be more equal without having "richer poor".

And, yeah, Canada probably has less income segregation, likely because it has more multifamily, mixed-income housing, and the wealthy corridors are often closer to the urban core.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by isaidso

There's a reason many immigrants are choosing smaller metros over the traditional immigrant magnets of Vancouver, Montreal, and Toronto: the standard of living is generally higher.

The City of Toronto alone gets 30% of all Canadian immigrants. That's an amazing figure.

http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=dbe867b42d853410VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD

I would not be surprised if a majority of Canadian immigrants are in two (or perhaps even one) metro area. So it appears that Canadian immigration is heavily concentrated, and immigrants generally prefer Toronto (and to a lesser extent Vancouver and Montreal).

Very few are ending up in places like Saskatoon or Thunder Bay, and it isn't clear to me why "standard of living is generally higher" in such places unless we're just reducing "standard of living" to "how cheap is local housing". By that measure rural Mississippi or Flint, MI have the highest standard of living in the U.S.

[memph]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Where are you coming up with this stuff?

Median U.S. household income in 2015 was around 57k USD. Obviously the median will be much higher in major metropolitan counties. In the largest, most prosperous U.S. metros, median income is usually somewhere between 70-90k.

Canada would need a median 77k income to have the same median as the U.S., though this doesn't really answer the question. We're looking at income cohorts and means, not medians, no? Means will undoubtedly be higher in the U.S., due to the higher proportion of high income cohorts.

As for the lowest income cohorts, 13.5% of the U.S. lives in poverty as of 2015.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/09/13/news/economy/median-income-census/



I think the first part is true, but I don't see data supporting the second part. I get that it "feels" right because Canada is overall somewhat more equal. But a country can be more equal without having "richer poor".

And, yeah, Canada probably has less income segregation, likely because it has more multifamily, mixed-income housing, and the wealthy corridors are often closer to the urban core.

$30,900 was the median per capita income for the top 100 counties, not the median household income.

Median household income for Canada in 2014 was $78,870 CAD.
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/famil108a-eng.htm


Lets look at the Toronto's census tract 316.04, which is in the Jane-Finch area consisting entirely of public housing and private sector apartment buildings.

Median Income: $18,195
Average Income: $21,768
Low income: 45.4%
Employment Rate: 45.6%
Unemployment Rate: 15.4%

Education of population aged 25-64
University (Bachelor+): 10.3%
Postsecondary of some sort: 47.2%
High School: 73.0%
% of families with children that are single parent: 59.1%

So ok, not very good, there's definitely social and economic issues/disadvantages being faced by that neighbourhood. However, despite the lack of housing typically associated with more middle class households like SFHs or newer condo apartments, incomes are still significantly higher than in the poorest neighbourhoods of most American cities.

According to this (from 2005 so somewhat dated, but that's the best I could find and measures poverty the same - which Canada and the US generally don't)
http://www.lisdatacenter.org/wps/liswps/419.pdf
17.0% of Americans earn less than 50% of the median income, compared to 11.4% of Canadians.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Crawford

The City of Toronto alone gets 30% of all Canadian immigrants. That's an amazing figure.

But according to your link that figure is 10 years old. Immigration has increased a lot to smaller Canadian cities and provinces over the past decade as the federal government has permitted more provinces to run their own nominee programs. Toronto and Vancouver have also gotten much less affordable.

There is some discussion of the trends here, although these numbers are a bit out of date now too (a lot changed from 2012-2016 in terms of immigration policy and housing costs): http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11f0019m/11f0019m2015366-eng.htm

Toronto's share of new immigrants was 48.4% on 2000 but that dropped to 30% by 2012. The Toronto metropolitan area's share of Canada's population was about 17% in 2011.

In the long run, unless something dramatic changes, I think the share of immigrants headed to smaller cities will continue to climb.