Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[begratto]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

Fast food chains in downtown Montreal (and sometimes other parts of the city) are increasingly staffed by TFWs who are hired as cheap labour. They're not immigrants who struggle with French, they're people who will never have a chance to learn French because they're working long hours at minimum wage and likely won't be here for more than a few years.

It’s even spreading outside of downtown, in some fast food chains, notably Tim Hortons and PFK / KFC. People complain all the time about the English-speaking only staff of these chains on the local facebook groups here in Verdun.

I’m not blaming the employees at all btw. As you mention they work hard just to survive. But the franchise owners should try to keep the unilingual staff in the kitchen and try to find people with some knowledge of French for customer-facing jobs…

[Kilgore Trout]

Exactly. It's the franchise owners and corporations that are to blame, not the poor schmucks who are just trying to do their jobs with the skills they have.

I'm a lot less upset about certain immigrant-oriented businesses where it's hard to get served in French (or English for that matter) because they're not aiming to serve the general public. There's a great Latino supermarket and cafeteria at my corner and it's always a surprise as to which language I'll be served in. Tonight was French, the time before that was English, and the time before that was Spanish. In fact, a majority of the times, I'm speaking French and they're replying to me in Spanish, which I find kind of charming.

(This is a complete tangent but the staff at my local Vietnamese supermarket all speak French, often very well, and many of them also speak English and Cantonese in addition to Vietnamese. The butcher at that place speaks all those languages plus Mandarin and a Chinese language I think is Teochew. Pretty impressive.)

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Many ROCers on the other hand behave like they "own" Quebec and as such can have different behaviour in Quebec compared to when they are abroad.

It's not uncommon to have our fellow citizens walk around Quebec (even living there) and expect everyone to speak English (and huff and puff when they don't) but then go to great pains to speak another language - including French in some cases - when abroad.

Yes, even amongst our friends and acquaintances we know quite a few ROCers who are willing to go out on a limb and speak broken French in Paris or Nice, but then chooses to speak exclusively in English while travelling in Quebec.

We'd ask them why, and they'll then come up with strange excuses like .. gosh darn those Quebecers speak too damn funny with their harsh redneck accents. Then ironically compliment my SO for speaking like a Parisien, not realising it's actually international french which is the common accent in urban Quebec these days.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Honestly I don't think Ontario French Language Services is worth bragging about. It sounds good on paper but the reality is that Ontario French Language services is practically non-existent, especially in Toronto.

The number of hoops my SO had to jump through just to get French services is frankly embarrassing (like prove you're a real francophone worthy of the service!), and SO has the FLS ombudsman on speed dial.

Up to this day, SO still gets most Ontario government correspondences only in English, and many departments you call into does not offer any French services (e.g. OSAP). The City of Toronto is even worse in this regard.

As my SO says, the biggest boast to Québec sovereignty would be to send Québécois to live in 2024 Toronto.

Even the EAST-EST signage thing everyone is going on about only really applies in the Ottawa region.

If you drive from Ottawa to Toronto, the highway signs on provincial highways literally change from bilingual to English only as soon as you cross out of Ottawa's municipal boundary.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

I can imagine the outrage if NB, ON, PE, and MB removed their bilingual signage and reverted back to English only signage. There would be howls of outrage from Quebec and elsewhere in the country. The MPs from Papineau and Beloeil—Chambly would be leading the charge. On the other hand, when Quebec removes what little bilingual signage there is, crickets.

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Even the EAST-EST signage thing everyone is going on about only really applies in the Ottawa region.

If you drive from Ottawa to Toronto, the highway signs on provincial highways literally change from bilingual to English only as soon as you cross out of Ottawa's municipal boundary.

What??? Ontario is not a bilingual utopia? Signage is pretty much as English in Ontario as it is French in Québec? But at least, Francophones have as good services in French as Anglophones have in Québec, right?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Maybe it was lio. I could see him doing it too.

I definitely read it on SSP though. This was several years ago.

My closest anecdote was that one time at the Port Huron / Sarnia crossing, one of the lanes had a sign “French language service offered”, but some of the other lines had less people in them (it was very busy and I didn’t want to waste time), so even though I’d have been curious to check out for myself how true it was, I just picked a faster lane.

I also thought to myself, if you’re arriving from the west at Port Huron, and don’t even speak enough English to go through customs in English, then WTF?

I was coming back from a successful business trip in Texas that time but I would somehow have been totally screwed without French language service at the Sarnia point of entry… yeah, sounds plausible

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by lio45

My closest anecdote was that one time at the Port Huron / Sarnia crossing, one of the lanes had a sign “French language service offered”, but some of the other lines had less people in them (it was very busy and I didn’t want to waste time), so even though I’d have been curious to check out for myself how true it was, I just picked a faster lane.

I also thought to myself, if you’re arriving from the west at Port Huron, and don’t even speak enough English to go through customs in English, then WTF?

I was coming back from a successful business trip in Texas that time but I would somehow have been totally screwed without French language service at the Sarnia point of entry… yeah, sounds plausible

This sounds familiar. You must have posted about this and I recalled it a little miscorrectly.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Yes, even amongst our friends and acquaintances we know quite a few ROCers who are willing to go out on a limb and speak broken French in Paris or Nice, but then chooses to speak exclusively in English while travelling in Quebec.

We'd ask them why, and they'll then come up with strange excuses like .. gosh darn those Quebecers speak too damn funny with their harsh redneck accents. Then ironically compliment my SO for speaking like a Parisien, not realising it's actually international french which is the common accent in urban Quebec these days.

The same phenomenon happens with the Flemings of Belgium. They refuse to speak French to their fellow Francophone Belgian countrymen, but have no problem speaking French in France, or to French visitors in Flanders.

[harls]

Maybe everyone could try not to be an asshole? What a crazy idea.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by harls

Maybe everyone could try not to be an asshole? What a crazy idea.

Historical hangups, or chips on their shoulders. It's a universal phenomenon. People and societies cannot be easily detached from their past history.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by begratto

It’s even spreading outside of downtown, in some fast food chains, notably Tim Hortons and PFK / KFC. People complain all the time about the English-speaking only staff of these chains on the local facebook groups here in Verdun.

I’m not blaming the employees at all btw. As you mention they work hard just to survive. But the franchise owners should try to keep the unilingual staff in the kitchen and try to find people with some knowledge of French for customer-facing jobs…

I've heard it's now spread into Rive Sud, and it's increasingly common in Brossard and Longueuil fast food restos to be served by English only speaking staff. Wouldn't be surprised if it keeps spreading through Montérégie.

It's also a profound failure of Trudeau's immigration policy to flood the country with record breaking numbers of TFWs and international students who can't manage basic proficiency in French.

[thebasketballgeek]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Yes, even amongst our friends and acquaintances we know quite a few ROCers who are willing to go out on a limb and speak broken French in Paris or Nice, but then chooses to speak exclusively in English while travelling in Quebec.

We'd ask them why, and they'll then come up with strange excuses like .. gosh darn those Quebecers speak too damn funny with their harsh redneck accents. Then ironically compliment my SO for speaking like a Parisien, not realising it's actually international french which is the common accent in urban Quebec these days.

By urban Quebec do u mean just Montréal? Because when I go to Québec City I hear some impressive accents that can be as thick as the ones in Rimouski. The major difference I notice is that the closer you get to Montreal, the more English words are thrown into each sentence. The accent is definitely noticeable, but maybe that’s because I live with a family from France at the moment which helps differentiating the two.

Not sure how true it is but I’ve heard that Québécois who travel abroad will code switch to standard French, sometimes without even realizing it. Personally, I’m actually starting to prefer the Québécois accent compared to the standard French one although that’s another topic entirely lol.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

Not sure how true it is but I’ve heard that Québécois who travel abroad will code switch to standard French, sometimes without even realizing it. Personally, I’m actually starting to prefer the Québécois accent compared to the standard French one although that’s another topic entirely lol.

Many "code switch" to some sort of Standard Quebec French in professional settings. This is normal when you have a thick accent/dialect.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I know. Anglos are really thin skinned people. We should never complain about anything. We have it so good, and we should just shut the f*ck up or get out. If we dare complain, well, heck, we are enemies of Quebec! We are the most spoiled minority in the history of the world. Le Québec aux Québécois!!

Did an anglo ever get $12,000 for getting served a Sprite in French on Air Canada or Via Rail? Damn, I could give up my day job!



https://nationalpost.com/news/canada...-7up-in-french

It reminds me of the attacks and accusations that people face when they criticize Israel in any way. You got to be 100% with them, because if you are opposed to 2% of what is happening, you are against them!

I am out of this thread again. Enjoy getting selective, revised history lessons from Nouveau Brisavoine!

No one is revising history, I am pointing out double standards. Air Canada is supposed to offer bilingual services by law because they proved over and over that Francophones are second class customers. They have a quasi-monopoly on a lot of routes, so there are not much options to switch airlines. The Francophones should just demand services, right? But when they do, they are laughed at by people reminding everyone how silly it is not to be able to order a 7-Up. I am pretty sure it is much easier for an Anglophone to order a 7-Up in English in Québec than the other way around.

But when it comes to real services like healthcare, it might not be as silly. By law in Québec, healthcare services have to be offered in English if the professional speaks English. And what percentage of health professionals speak English? According to Statistics Canada, almost 90 % of doctors can, as well as a little less than 55 % of nurses. Others professionals like paramedics, psychologists and pharmacists are between those proportions (link bellow). What percentage of health professionals can speak French in the ROC?

It is true that there are some limitations on some theoretical rights in Québec; the ceiling for services in English is lower. But in practice, those rights are respected, In the ROC, in theory there are no limitations on services in French, but in practice, any excuse is good not to provide those services (not enough Francophones, Francophones understand English anyway so why bother, not enough bilingual employees, if we hire bilingual people they will be less competent overall, too expensive, etc.). This is the double standards that we complain about in Québec: in theory, Francophone in the ROC have the right to anything and everything in French, but in practice they are often offered crumps (except in bilingual New Brunswick). Anglophones in Québec have some limitations of some services (and still, it is mostly for immigrants that chose to move to Québec because they wanted to live in a French speaking environment) but they do get good, first class services, despite what is reported by the mainstream ROC narrative.


https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/...021026-eng.htm

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

I've heard it's now spread into Rive Sud, and it's increasingly common in Brossard and Longueuil fast food restos to be served by English only speaking staff. Wouldn't be surprised if it keeps spreading through Montérégie.

It's also a profound failure of Trudeau's immigration policy to flood the country with record breaking numbers of TFWs and international students who can't manage basic proficiency in French.

It's also spread to eastern parts of Gatineau whereas before it was basically unheard of here.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

In the ROC, in theory there are no limitations on services in French, but in practice, any excuse is good not to provide those services (not enough Francophones, Francophones understand English anyway so why bother, not enough bilingual employees, if we hire bilingual people they will be less competent overall, too expensive, etc.). ]

Add to that the new angle that it's racist to require bilingualism in English and French for a job even if serving the public.

It's quite convenient that it's always the French requirement that is racist.

Oddly enough no one ever argues that it should be OK to speak only French plus Arabic or French plus Innu to hold down a job.

[Luisito]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

I've heard it's now spread into Rive Sud, and it's increasingly common in Brossard and Longueuil fast food restos to be served by English only speaking staff. Wouldn't be surprised if it keeps spreading through Montérégie.

That is actually surprising. Specially in Longueil. You would think they would get a lot of shit for that in an area like longueil. With the exception of a few isolated pockets the south shore seems pretty French to me. I have seen people get berated for only speaking English in areas that have much larger English speaking demographics. Or have attitudes towards this become more lax in the last couple of decades??

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Luisito

That is actually surprising. Specially in Longueil. You would think they would get a lot of shit for that in an area like longueil. With the exception of a few isolated pockets the south shore seems pretty French to me. I have seen people get berated for only speaking English in areas that have much larger English speaking demographics. Or have attitudes towards this become more lax in the last couple of decades??

It's a completely post-COVID phenomenon. I have family there, and it's kind of caught them by surprise as well. Though they're multilingual Allophones so it doesn't impact their daily life.

Of course Brossard-La Prairie is more like ground zero especially along Boul Taschereau, DIX30. Whereas closer to Boucherville all of the fast food big box chains still can all serve in French.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

By urban Quebec do u mean just Montréal? Because when I go to Québec City I hear some impressive accents that can be as thick as the ones in Rimouski. The major difference I notice is that the closer you get to Montreal, the more English words are thrown into each sentence. The accent is definitely noticeable, but maybe that’s because I live with a family from France at the moment which helps differentiating the two.

I should had qualified that I'm referring more about younger urban Québécois, from GenZ/A to Millennial. Whether they're in Sherbrooke, TR, Montreal or Québec they all gravitate towards international French these days. With the more distinct accents, I bet there's a big chance they moved to Québec from the regions, as Québec is the primary feeder for all of the regions east of there, and they've got some pretty distinct accents out in Gaspésie, Îles-de-la-Madeleine, Lac Saint-Jean and NB Acadie.

Not sure how true it is but I’ve heard that Québécois who travel abroad will code switch to standard French, sometimes without even realizing it. Personally, I’m actually starting to prefer the Québécois accent compared to the standard French one although that’s another topic entirely lol.

Yes that's real. Based on my observations, I tend to think it's the other way around in that younger Québécois turn on the Québec accent only when they're around other Québécois. When they're speaking to other francophones regardless of where (or in a professional setting) they'll switch to International French.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Even the EAST-EST signage thing everyone is going on about only really applies in the Ottawa region.

If you drive from Ottawa to Toronto, the highway signs on provincial highways literally change from bilingual to English only as soon as you cross out of Ottawa's municipal boundary.

Yea, I think in the GTA the only time you would come across french on the highway is the digital highway signs, and only if it's not showing real time information like lanes blocked or a crash ahead:



Metrolinx does a marginally better job, at least it puts up more bilingual signage at Union Station, and attempts to play french announcements with this outdated primitive AI voice that constantly lags.