Surrey Langley Skytrain - Expo Line Extension | Proposed

[logicbomb]

The Liberals should be definitely promising Surrey the moon when it comes to public transportation. I think they can legit win an election if they push for Skytrain to the Valley. The NDP are not interested in doing anything for Langley hence why they unwilling to add additional dollars.

[Firebrand]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Queensborough Bridge is such a bottleneck though... Why’s the city so opposed to a “new” bridge?

New West vehemently opposed the new Patullo bridge for years. The only reason it's getting replaced is because New West reluctantly rolled with it when the NDP took over the replacement project. We're getting the bridge, but with compromises. (eg Four lanes with no shoulders.)

[BirchTrain]

Originally Posted by Firebrand

New West vehemently opposed the new Patullo bridge for years. The only reason it's getting replaced is because New West reluctantly rolled with it when the NDP took over the replacement project. We're getting the bridge, but with compromises. (eg Four lanes with no shoulders.)

And no bus lanes for any possible future bus routes

Possible expansion to six lanes in the future, but they will surely be for cars.

At least there will be decent walking/cycling paths compared to what’s there right now.

[Aroundtheworld]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Is $500 Million enough excess Cash to get the Expo to Clayton rather than ending in Fleetwood? It seems kind of a waste to leave $500 Million on the table like this...

$500 Million is not enough to cross the ALR and reach Clayton. In my estimate, if the $1.65 B were fully spent on Skytrain, the track would end somewhere in the middle of the ALR, which is not realistic. Ending at 164th St would costs around $1.15 B, leaving $500 M for other things.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Is $500 Million enough excess Cash to get the Expo to Clayton rather than ending in Fleetwood? It seems kind of a waste to leave $500 Million on the table like this...

Let's not get hung up on Langley. $500M is enough for BRT from Guildford to White Rock, and possibly for the SFU Gondola.

[YVR Bruce]

[QUOTE, the track would end somewhere in the middle of the ALR, which is not realistic.[/QUOTE]

Not sure about that:- I'm thinking 176th would make a good collection point for buses from many quadrants, Cloverdale, Langley, Walnut Grove (via Harvey Rd) and Morgan Creek etc. Relatively open roads, few stoplights....

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by YVR Bruce

[QUOTE, the track would end somewhere in the middle of the ALR, which is not realistic.

Not sure about that:- I'm thinking 176th would make a good collection point for buses from many quadrants, Cloverdale, Langley, Walnut Grove (via Harvey Rd) and Morgan Creek etc. Relatively open roads, few stoplights....[/QUOTE]

The critics would argue that it is a station in the middle of nowhere but I hear your point. Once the line gets extended to Langley, who would exit the train there other than people going south. Love the idea though....

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

The critics would argue that it is a station in the middle of nowhere but I hear your point. Once the line gets extended to Langley, who would exit the train there other than people going south. Love the idea though....

I dunno, that's still more ridership than Sea Island and Templeton put together. Even more if the Honeybee Centre densifies.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

Not sure about that:- I'm thinking 176th would make a good collection point for buses from many quadrants, Cloverdale, Langley, Walnut Grove (via Harvey Rd) and Morgan Creek etc. Relatively open roads, few stoplights....

The critics would argue that it is a station in the middle of nowhere but I hear your point. Once the line gets extended to Langley, who would exit the train there other than people going south. Love the idea though....[/QUOTE]

The thing is, it would become useless once the Line is inevitably extended towards Langley City Centre.

Comparing it to Sea Island is a Red Herring, Sea Island and Templeton are primarily for Transportation within the YVR Complex, and were payed for by YVR.




It makes more sense to either go all the way (the only difficult area is the Serpentine River Valley, and the # of Stations/km is pretty low (not the mention that it's a straight line), so it might be cheap enough to get the line to Clayton even without extra money.
https://sfb.nathanpachal.com/2012/03...-skytrain.html

The entirety of the line to Langley was supposed to cost 2.9B.@ about 16 km in Length; or ~181M/ km. Under this (very basic) analysis, the line to Clayton would cost ~1.99B; while the line to 164 St. would cost about 1.09 Billion.
This is probably not a very accurate (or good) calculation, really, but it might be possible in an optimistic scenario.

However, Translink themselves point out that demand for the Clayton Station would be the lowest of all the stations, and the line past Fleetwood is already considered inefficient for Skytrain in Current demand.
https://www.translink.ca/-/media/Doc...y-LRT-Memo.pdf
How well would a station on the ALR do on the long term?

Even though I would like an extra $75 Million so we could get the line to Clayton with some breathing room (despite its low demand; I still think it would be a good idea to fill up the remaining cash with long-term infrastructure, especially since there's a lot of developable land around Clayton).

More reasonably, though, we'd get something minor that could be comfortably fit in $500 Million, rather than hitting the limits, like the BMG (supposed to cost $120 Million), and a B-line on the L-line corridor, which should fill up the $500 Million more comfortably.

If we need all of that cash in the SOF, extend the B-line to White Rock and Carvolth.

[GMasterAres]

The expensive parts of SkyTrain are the stations and maintenance yards as they would likely need a second one if Expo Line was extended all the way to LC. They should build less stations like Canada Line and just future build when demand requires, not much you can do with the maintenance yard though.

Stations at 140th, 152nd, 160th, 166th, 188th, Willowbrook dr., 200th then Glover Road is what I think makes sense for round 1.

That's it to start. In the future (aka 20 years) when demand increases, which it will, given Surrey is building more dense along Fraser Highway than most other cities are building then you can look at:

148th, 88th, 164th/168th, 184th, 64th@Fraser, Langley Bypass.

So that's 16.5km and 8 stations. Probably all that is required at this stage. I don't care what people say about potential ridership, especially anything coming from Translink. Translink has, in the last 20 years, grossly underestimated transit usage and grossly overestimated road usage. They are terrible at numbers sorry, I don't give them any time in that regard. As a result, I am fairly confident that their numbers for a Fraser Highway SkyTrain line are considerably under what will be reality once built.

[GMasterAres]

As for money, it isn't much in the grand scheme of things. $1.65 billion vs $2.9 billion is pocket change honestly in the grand scheme of things. The Province of BC alone has an annual budget of north of $50 billion. That's annually. And in 2018 they are accounting for $9.2 billion in capital spending. Again 1 year. SkyTrain takes years go build, and it is being funded by 3 levels of government. We're talking an LRT vs SkyTrain difference of $1.25 billion. Chump change for what we'd be getting SoF and quite frankly, regionally.

As for diverting funds and all that talk, there is not "$500 million to be used elsewhere". It doesn't work that way and it annoys me when people start talking "Oh spend $500 million less by making the line shorter then re-divert to X Y and Z."

That has _NEVER_ happened in the history of ever with respect to infrastructure projects, and never will so I don't understand why some people constantly bring that up like it is a thing.

Also people need to remember, Surrey already had a Phase B after the LRT L loop and it was down Fraser Highway. The only thing that has changed is Phase B has been pushed in front of Phase A, as it SHOULD be because the backbone needs to be built first, and the push is for SkyTrain over LRT, which if you read these forums it is fairly clear most people are 100% for along that corridor. The City of Surrey itself already has road designs for Fraser Highway including through Green Timbers park for SkyTrain, so this isn't a new thing. Heck some of them were posted here a few years ago.

By the time this thing is under construction and ultimately built, very very likely Mayor and Council will have switched in Surrey and the KGB-104th L corridor can be re-evaluated and probably more accurately as the B-line will have been running over 10 years then and ridership numbers will be more accurate.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by jhausner

As for money, it isn't much in the grand scheme of things. $1.65 billion vs $2.9 billion is pocket change honestly in the grand scheme of things. The Province of BC alone has an annual budget of north of $50 billion. That's annually. And in 2018 they are accounting for $9.2 billion in capital spending. Again 1 year. SkyTrain takes years go build, and it is being funded by 3 levels of government. We're talking an LRT vs SkyTrain difference of $1.25 billion. Chump change for what we'd be getting SoF and quite frankly, regionally.

As for diverting funds and all that talk, there is not "$500 million to be used elsewhere". It doesn't work that way and it annoys me when people start talking "Oh spend $500 million less by making the line shorter then re-divert to X Y and Z."

That has _NEVER_ happened in the history of ever with respect to infrastructure projects, and never will so I don't understand why some people constantly bring that up like it is a thing.

Also people need to remember, Surrey already had a Phase B after the LRT L loop and it was down Fraser Highway. The only thing that has changed is Phase B has been pushed in front of Phase A, as it SHOULD be because the backbone needs to be built first, and the push is for SkyTrain over LRT, which if you read these forums it is fairly clear most people are 100% for along that corridor.

By the time this thing is under construction and ultimately built, very very likely Mayor and Council will have switched in Surrey and the KGB-104th L corridor can be re-evaluated and probably more accurately as the B-line will have been running over 10 years then and ridership numbers will be more accurate.

Yes, like the Phase B Broadway. It's not in the current 10-year plan.
When I suggested using the money for B-lines, this is something Translink themselves proposed as part of various SOF Rapid Transit Proposals.

Admittedly, the BMG is taking things too far, but the B-line is basically a semi-BRT system as is. It can be marketed as a single Rapid Transit Expansion Project.

Yes, I would rather have the entirety of the cash spent for extending the Expo Line to Clayton. However, that likely would require another 75-100M to be coughed up somehow. That 'somehow' is an issue.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by jhausner

The expensive parts of SkyTrain are the stations and maintenance yards as they would likely need a second one if Expo Line was extended all the way to LC. They should build less stations like Canada Line and just future build when demand requires, not much you can do with the maintenance yard though.

Stations at 140th, 152nd, 160th, 166th, 188th, Willowbrook dr., 200th then Glover Road is what I think makes sense for round 1.

That's it to start. In the future (aka 20 years) when demand increases, which it will, given Surrey is building more dense along Fraser Highway than most other cities are building then you can look at:

148th, 88th, 164th/168th, 184th, 64th@Fraser, Langley Bypass.

So that's 16.5km and 8 stations. Probably all that is required at this stage. I don't care what people say about potential ridership, especially anything coming from Translink. Translink has, in the last 20 years, grossly underestimated transit usage and grossly overestimated road usage. They are terrible at numbers sorry, I don't give them any time in that regard. As a result, I am fairly confident that their numbers for a Fraser Highway SkyTrain line are considerably under what will be reality once built.

Uhh...


You do realize what the stations map looks like?


There are already only 8 stations...

[Firebrand]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Yes, I would rather have the entirety of the cash spent for extending the Expo Line to Clayton. However, that likely would require another 75-100M to be coughed up somehow. That 'somehow' is an issue.

Originally Posted by logicbomb

The Liberals should be definitely promising Surrey the moon when it comes to public transportation. I think they can legit win an election if they push for Skytrain to the Valley. The NDP are not interested in doing anything for Langley hence why they unwilling to add additional dollars.

It's more the fact it's a political issue rather than a budget one. Langley and Cloverdale are BC Liberal strongholds, so the NDP is stubborn to give out more money for these ridings.

[Firebrand]

Originally Posted by jhausner

So that's 16.5km and 8 stations. Probably all that is required at this stage. I don't care what people say about potential ridership, especially anything coming from Translink. Translink has, in the last 20 years, grossly underestimated transit usage and grossly overestimated road usage. They are terrible at numbers sorry, I don't give them any time in that regard. As a result, I am fairly confident that their numbers for a Fraser Highway SkyTrain line are considerably under what will be reality once built.

It's probably the fact that the people running TransLink are drivers, so in their mind not many people will take the train and will see it as an expensive mistake. This happened to the Canada Line, and now it's starting to suffer from capacity issues, and they're dealing with the same problem with the Millennium Line to UBC after the portion to Arbutus is done.

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by Firebrand

It's probably the fact that the people running TransLink are drivers, so in their mind not many people will take the train and will see it as an expensive mistake. This happened to the Canada Line, and now it's starting to suffer from capacity issues, and they're dealing with the same problem with the Millennium Line to UBC after the portion to Arbutus is done.

Dedicated rail transit like Skytrain technology attracts ridership. Once the line reaches Langley it will no doubt spur density and attract ridership as time passes. People want transit that is fast and consistent. Buses have their purpose but are beholden to conditions on the road. The LRT that was proposed by the former city counsel does nothing to help region-wide transit but focuses on a limited segment of the whole Metro-van. The original designers of the Expo Line connected many communities and cities together. Adding Langley to the mix will complete the original intent of the Expo Line.

It is interesting that I don't see other cities and mayors stepping up and pushing for an LRT in their community.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Not sure why TransLink would want a stop at 164th - it's too close to 160th to be very effective.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Say, what about using the other two side of the triangle: south down 168th, then east along 64th, then back onto Fraser? Not that much of a detour, and it covers Cloverdale much better.

[flipper316]

https://vancouversun.com/news/local-...ouncil-meeting

Surrey mayor-elect Doug McCallum broke his silence with Postmedia News on Sunday and emphatically hammered home the point that light rail will be spiked as soon as the new council first meets Nov. 5.

It will be replaced, McCallum said, with SkyTrain for the same $1.65-billion price that LRT was estimated to cost, all of which is funded by three levels of government.

“I think that most of the region, this is what they want,” McCallum said Sunday. Postmedia had previously left messages with the mayor-elect since the municipal elections Oct. 27. Sunday was the first time he replied.

“A large majority of people in Surrey want SkyTrain,” he said. “Voters wiped out the whole previous council. The new team is solidly with residents who want SkyTrain and not light rail.”

McCallum beat Surrey First challenger Tom Gill by 17,000 votes, ending a decade-long dynasty for the party in the city. McCallum’s Safe Surrey Coalition elected seven councillors, while Surrey First elected just one, and she is new to council.

“I think the reaction to the election in B.C., and to a certain degree nationally, was a bit of a shock,” McCallum said. “But the people of Surrey are in complete agreement they want a change and they showed up at the ballot box.”

There has been $50 million already spent on LRT in Surrey, according to TransLink, and Surrey has spent $20 million in pre-construction costs.

Some other regional mayors on the Mayors Council, such as Richard Stewart in Coquitlam and Malcolm Brodie in Richmond, have expressed their opposition to McCallum’s plans, while Kennedy Stewart, Vancouver’s mayor-elect, said he would do what he could to help Surrey get SkyTrain.

Critics of switching at this late date say SkyTrain would cost another $1 billion to $1.5 billion, but McCallum scoffed at that figure, saying based on what it cost to complete the Evergreen Line, SkyTrain could be built along the Fraser Highway to Langley for the same $1.65 billion already given the green light.

“All we ask is that they change the technology from light rail to SkyTrain and apply the money to SkyTrain,” McCallum said. “I don’t think (up to $1.5 billion in estimated added costs) is very accurate, TransLink has a history of not having costing right.

“I think we can build SkyTrain along the Fraser Highway for that $1.65 billion.”

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by flipper316

https://vancouversun.com/news/local-...ouncil-meeting

Surrey mayor-elect Doug McCallum broke his silence with Postmedia News on Sunday and emphatically hammered home the point that light rail will be spiked as soon as the new council first meets Nov. 5.

It will be replaced, McCallum said, with SkyTrain for the same $1.65-billion price that LRT was estimated to cost, all of which is funded by three levels of government.

“I think that most of the region, this is what they want,” McCallum said Sunday. Postmedia had previously left messages with the mayor-elect since the municipal elections Oct. 27. Sunday was the first time he replied.

“A large majority of people in Surrey want SkyTrain,” he said. “Voters wiped out the whole previous council. The new team is solidly with residents who want SkyTrain and not light rail.”

McCallum beat Surrey First challenger Tom Gill by 17,000 votes, ending a decade-long dynasty for the party in the city. McCallum’s Safe Surrey Coalition elected seven councillors, while Surrey First elected just one, and she is new to council.

“I think the reaction to the election in B.C., and to a certain degree nationally, was a bit of a shock,” McCallum said. “But the people of Surrey are in complete agreement they want a change and they showed up at the ballot box.”

There has been $50 million already spent on LRT in Surrey, according to TransLink, and Surrey has spent $20 million in pre-construction costs.

Some other regional mayors on the Mayors Council, such as Richard Stewart in Coquitlam and Malcolm Brodie in Richmond, have expressed their opposition to McCallum’s plans, while Kennedy Stewart, Vancouver’s mayor-elect, said he would do what he could to help Surrey get SkyTrain.

Critics of switching at this late date say SkyTrain would cost another $1 billion to $1.5 billion, but McCallum scoffed at that figure, saying based on what it cost to complete the Evergreen Line, SkyTrain could be built along the Fraser Highway to Langley for the same $1.65 billion already given the green light.

“All we ask is that they change the technology from light rail to SkyTrain and apply the money to SkyTrain,” McCallum said. “I don’t think (up to $1.5 billion in estimated added costs) is very accurate, TransLink has a history of not having costing right.

“I think we can build SkyTrain along the Fraser Highway for that $1.65 billion.”

I am not a transit expert but I think the cost of the stations eats up a huge chunk of the costs. Maybe the stations don't need to be so elaborate. Those opposed to Skytrain will naturally inflate the estimate while those in favour will low ball the estimate. Until the professionals in the field do the cost estimates, it is just a guessing game based on the actual costs of other projects. The evergreen tunnel was pretty expensive. No tunnels on the road to Langley.