Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

If you haven’t already noticed, New Brisavoine (or Yuri as I like to call him) is virulently anti-anglophone

What I see here are virulent xenophobes, who don't like the fact that a non-Canadian speaks in this thread. This sort of parochialism gives a bad image of Canada, because I'm sure it's not just Canadian people who read this thread.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

If you haven’t already noticed, New Brisavoine (or Yuri as I like to call him) is virulently anti-anglophone, and this drives his interest as an outsider from France (or possibly Russia if he indeed a troll as I suspect) in Quebec separatism. Separation would be a wonderful way to stick it to the anglos that he hates so much......

Could be. Russians have the same obsession with destroying Western liberalism and their own Muslim minority. Then again, France is also the country that went from "Algeria is France," to, "Those Algerian grandmothers and their headscarves are a threat to French civilization!" in like two generations.

His idea that Indians are ditching English was entertaining though. And clearly projection.

Though, the idea they Gatineau is about to get swamped with Abaya wearers is probably even more entertaining. Might be able to get decent Middle Eastern food on that side of the river if that ever happens.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

His idea that Indians are ditching English was entertaining though. And clearly projection.

Again a strawman. You love those, don't you?

This is what I wrote, specifically:

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

My own observation is English seems less and less prevalent in public life in India.

The fact that Indian students are studying English for international business reasons like everybody else on this planet is irrelevant to what I said.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Though, the idea they Gatineau is about to get swamped with Abaya wearers is probably even more entertaining. Might be able to get decent Middle Eastern food on that side of the river if that ever happens.

You are ludicrous. Only venom comes out of your keyboard.

And weren't you the one insisting Southern Indians are very different from Punjabis? The Muslim immigrants in Québec are predominantly Maghreban. They are as different from a Middle Easterner as your Southern Indian from a Punjabi. Maghreban food is not Middle Eastern food.

Besides, Maghreban immigrants typically are not into opening food businesses. In countries where they have immigrated, you'll find very few Maghreban restaurants (that's particularly the case for Algerians, who avoid the food business as much as they can; Moroccans tend to open more restaurants compared to Algerians, but even for them, the ratio of restaurants per number of immigrants is very low, compared to other immigrant groups like Chinese or Indians).

[urbandreamer]

I could see the day when Gatineau is majority black African. And if Quebec separates, Gatineau would probably join Ontario.

[urbandreamer]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I've always wondered why Canada's South Asian population is so disproportionately Punjabi. Is there some sort of historical tie between Canada and Punjab that I don't know about?

My mom told me Punjabis were brought to Vancouver and BC to work in the timber business. Probably the community started along the Fraser River - my grandfather worked as an accountant for these lumber mills, with a majority South Asian workforce.

[urbandreamer]

Originally Posted by lio45

Diaspora-concentration is pretty much always self-reinforcing (for obvious reasons), but you’re right that a small initial spark is required (after that, the snowball effect is logical). I suppose that small initial spark can even be random. After it’s ignited, it goes both ways (“Q: why do new Quebecois snowbirds all choose to concentrate in that one specific corner of South FL?” “A: because that’s where all the Quebecois are concentrating”)

I just discovered the real reason. My great great grandparent's, United Empire Loyalists from Vermont and Connecticut, who lived in Compton and Montreal, vacationed there every winter beginning in the 1870s. Obviously it was a New England/Yankee tradition brought by Anglo immigrants to Quebec. I suspect the Francophones in the Eastern Townships copied their habits once they could afford it.

[urbandreamer]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Actually no. I say this as someone of Indian heritage. Brampton is actually rather sub-ethnically specific. It's so Punjabi dominated, other Indian immigrants try and avoid it. And anybody coming from the larger cities in India actually tend to be more comfortable in downtown Toronto than Brampton.



I know to white guys all Indians look the same. But the difference between a South Indian Tamil and a North Indian Punjabi is as comparable to the difference between a Swede and an Italian. Languages, food and even religious practices are different.

My aunt, who's been in the US since 1963, is a Gujarat Jain born in Bombay, from a wealthy diamond/jewelry mining family. The look on her face when I explained where the majority of Canada's SA immigrants originate ha - she views them as the equivalent to white trash.

In my High Park high rise ghetto, the burqa-wearing woman with 4 kids in tow is more common than Africans in Gatineau. My neighbor is a Palestinian refugee, while across the hall is a Russian Jewess. We all remain friendly even though online you get the impression these cultures don't get along.

Re: Gatineau. How's the weather this week? I'm probably heading to Mont Tremblant with my Israeli friend.

[thebasketballgeek]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

My aunt, who's been in the US since 1963, is a Gujarat Jain born in Bombay, from a wealthy diamond/jewelry mining family. The look on her face when I explained where the majority of Canada's SA immigrants originate ha - she views them as the equivalent to white trash.

In my High Park high rise ghetto, the burqa-wearing woman with 4 kids in tow is more common than Africans in Gatineau. My neighbor is a Palestinian refugee, while across the hall is a Russian Jewess. We all remain friendly even though online you get the impression these cultures don't get along.

Re: Gatineau. How's the weather this week? I'm probably heading to Mont Tremblant with my Israeli friend.

Just fyi no one calls Mumbai “Bombay” anymore. Although I’m not surprised by your aunt’s viewpoint coming from a Diamond family considering the classism in India would even make Americans blush. Either way there’s still many Gujjus that live in Canada. As a Punjabi I had plenty of friends who came from Gujarat back in Winnipeg.

I will say my observations in small town Quebec is that there is a thriving immigrant community in Rimouski with the predominant minority being francophone Africans and a hint of Muslims wearing hijabs. They’ve integrated into the community well and there doesn’t seem to be much tension with the existing Québecois. Hell even I’m surprised how friendly most people are here towards me when it’s probably the first time they’ve seen an Indian lol.

I think the key factor is the lack of crime and social issues that would otherwise be more prevalent in the larger cities.

[urbandreamer]

Yeah I know it's Mumbai, but she still refers to it as Bombay. She grew up in Malabar Hill. I like to remind her that her great grandparents were peasants.

In Palmerston, Ontario, across from a South Asian owned fish & chip/shawarma restaurant is "Bombay Hub," an Indian restaurant with rave reviews.

[harls]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It'll still be way easier for Jim from Red Deer to get hired at Canadian Tire or eavesdrop on the police radio scanner in Brampton than in Laval.

Jesus Christ Acajack.. fuck off with the 'Jim from Red Deer' shit.

How would you like it if I personified french people as 'Jacques from Shediac'?

This shtick is old.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by harls

Jesus Christ Acajack.. fuck off with the 'Jim from Red Deer' shit.

How would you like it if I personified french people as 'Jacques from Shediac'?

This shtick is old.

I wouldn't care. It's not insulting at all.
1

[Architype]

Originally Posted by lio45

If Canada’s second-biggest province was a giant Brampton, it would indeed be totally true that this “Canadian Province of New Punjab” is a distinct society within Canada; in other words, his point isn’t at all a good one. Any neighborhood can be special; if the special-ness is province-wide then that’s more noteworthy at the federal level.

There is a difference, Quebec is not given special status just because it is distinct, but because it is one of the two founding societies in Canada. Perhaps it's just one of our more magnanimous concessions or enduring quirks of identity, a beloved archaism like the American right to bear arms, or the natural-born presidency requirement.

Originally Posted by Acajack

It'll still be way easier for Jim from Red Deer to get hired at Canadian Tire or eavesdrop on the police radio scanner in Brampton than in Laval.

That's bound to change in the near future, we already have auto-translate, and it will only improve, soon to function as audio translation in real time, we won't even need to learn French etc.. Don't forget that even Mike from Canmore was not a real person.

PS. I knew a guy some 20 odd years ago from Bombay, and he called it Bombay, which is just a derivative of Mumbai.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

Just fyi no one calls Mumbai “Bombay” anymore.

Still "Bombay" to people from there. Particularly those who are not Maharashtran. You'll find they use "Bombay" in English and "Mumbai" in Hindi and Marathi. My mom is from there. Plenty of relatives still there. That is how they use the terms. Even the younger folks.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

Just fyi no one calls Mumbai “Bombay” anymore.

In French we do. Bombay, Calcutta, Madras (Chennai is less frequently used in French), Bénarès. French-speakers also say "Birmanie" and not "Myanmar", "Pékin" and not "Beijing", "Canton" and not "Guangzhou", etc.

[Acajack]

Reporting on what I see (when asked) when out and about in Gatineau is not raising alarmism that Gatineau will become a Caliphate.

But yeah there are more and more women covering up here. It is what it is.

If you don't see them much when commuting on transit during the AM and PM rush it might be because Hijabi women (especially the foreign-born) are less likely to work outside the home.

If you live here like me you are more likely to see them out and about at midday or on weekends, running errands or taking a walk with preschool kids.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I wouldn't care. It's not insulting at all.

I’d point out he’s totally incorrect, if he wants to “personify French People” it should be something like “Didier from Grenoble”

And yep, not insulting at all — I could actually see you use exactly those words to illustrate a situation in present-day Montreal (“my kid knew as soon as this fellow student opened his mouth…”)

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Reporting on what I see (when asked) when out and about in Gatineau is not raising alarmism that Gatineau will become a Caliphate.

But yeah there are more and more women covering up here. It is what it is.

If you don't see them much when commuting on transit during the AM and PM rush it might be because Hijabi women (especially the foreign-born) are less likely to work outside the home.

If you live here like me you are more likely to see them out and about at midday or on weekends, running errands or taking a walk with preschool kids.

There's way more immigrants on the Ottawa side of the river. And living around Vanier, 1 km from Adonis and 2 km from Njaim Mid-East Food Market, I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that I get more exposure to Middle Eastern immigrants on a day-to-day basis than you might. And I still cannot recall actually seeing a woman with an Abaya. Nor do I find some huge rise in those wearing hijabs.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

There's way more immigrants on the Ottawa side of the river. And living around Vanier, 1 km from Adonis and 2 km from Njaim Mid-East Food Market, I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that I get more exposure to Middle Eastern immigrants on a day-to-day basis than you might. And I still cannot recall actually seeing a woman with an Abaya. Nor do I find some huge rise in those wearing hijabs.

Middle Eastern and Somali.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

There's way more immigrants on the Ottawa side of the river. And living around Vanier, 1 km from Adonis and 2 km from Njaim Mid-East Food Market, I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that I get more exposure to Middle Eastern immigrants on a day-to-day basis than you might. And I still cannot recall actually seeing a woman with an Abaya. Nor do I find some huge rise in those wearing hijabs.

I didn't say abayas were common in Gatineau.

I know that Muslim immigrants are more common in most of central Ottawa than on the Quebec side.

Pretty sure that if you went to St Laurent mall a couple of times a month you'd be able to quickly check off the abaya off your sighting list.