The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Get ready for the much awaited Scarborough subway



http://www.scarboroughsubwayextension.ca

Great to see a website is up.


Travel Times
Bloor-Yonge to Scarborough Centre Station

Driving: 20 minutes
Existing Transit Service: 35-40 minutes
With the Scarborough Subway Extension: 25 minutes (estimating)

Much much more competitive with the auto.

What I still don't get is how its supposed to save 15-20 minutes compared to the existing SRT. The SRT is fully grade separated rapid transit line. Sure it has more stops than the proposed subway but that just means it will take longer for many people to get to a stop. But the actual speed and distance covered won't be any different will it?

[ssiguy]

I don't suppose there is any chance they will elevate the Scar subway and save themselves a cool billion?

Great news for London. London has been phasing in some BRT-lite lines which have been very successful and the new mayor has placed BRT at the top of his priority list.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Personal question, but how old are you? If you're under 26 the VIA discounts are killer. I'm an insanely frequent train user but that may fall away after my 26th birthday...

I am 29.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

What I still don't get is how its supposed to save 15-20 minutes compared to the existing SRT. The SRT is fully grade separated rapid transit line. Sure it has more stops than the proposed subway but that just means it will take longer for many people to get to a stop. But the actual speed and distance covered won't be any different will it?

You are forgetting just how much time the transfer at Kennedy wastes.
15-20 is pushing it. It could save more like 10-15 min at the higher end.

I timed my transfer time between trains at Kennedy the other day. It wasted a total of 8 minutes on the inbound direction towards downtown.

Coming east from downtown, you tag on a potential 8 minute wait at Kennedy, with about a 5 minute or longer delay in pulling into Kennedy, because it is a terminal station. And there you go, it is a lot of time wasted.

It will not take longer for people to get to the subway. The same feeder buses will feed into the exact same areas, just a little further east. Not a big deal.

[Nouvellecosse]

Mike the Subway will have 1/2 the stops that the SRT had so doesn't that mean only 1/2 as many people will be living close to one?

What I don't understand is why they feel they can justify the HUGE cost of running the subway underground below McCowan rather than just running it on the existing SRT right of way and re-doing the connection using the hydro corridor (since the subway cannot make the tight curve).



Would eliminate the transfer and negate the need for huge tunneling cost in low density suburban areas.

[1overcosc]

Most of those SRT stations have very, very, very, very low ridership. The Scarborough Centre station has something like 90% of the ridership of the entire SRT. So removing 1/2 the stations will speed things up for almost everyone.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I don't suppose there is any chance they will elevate the Scar subway and save themselves a cool billion?

I don't think elevation actually saves nearly as much money as people think it does. I've seen comparisons for construction costs that show very little difference. Plus in the Canadian climate you have to worry about the fact that weather brings significant wear and tear on elevated structures, thus eroding any up-front construction savings by higher long-term maintenance costs.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Most of those SRT stations have very, very, very, very low ridership. The Scarborough Centre station has something like 90% of the ridership of the entire SRT. So removing 1/2 the stations will speed things up for almost everyone.

Well that sounds like a good idea then.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Mike the Subway will have 1/2 the stops that the SRT had so doesn't that mean only 1/2 as many people will be living close to one?

Scarborough Centre and Lawrence East are the big bus transfer stations. And those two will still have a station under the plan.

I don't like the idea of losing service along the existing SRT, so I am fine with running the subway elevated on the existing SRT right of way. Who knows, maybe that plan will be chosen.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Most of those SRT stations have very, very, very, very low ridership. The Scarborough Centre station has something like 90% of the ridership of the entire SRT. So removing 1/2 the stations will speed things up for almost everyone.

No they do not have very very very very low ridership . Toronto tends to have very weird ideas on what makes high ridership at stations.

The SRT stations have ridership levels that are no lower, and in fact higher than many subway stations in NYC and other big cities.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I don't think elevation actually saves nearly as much money as people think it does. I've seen comparisons for construction costs that show very little difference. Plus in the Canadian climate you have to worry about the fact that weather brings significant wear and tear on elevated structures, thus eroding any up-front construction savings by higher long-term maintenance costs.

Skytrain ages just fine in Vancouver. I really don't think climate would be much of an issue in Toronto.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Skytrain ages just fine in Vancouver. I really don't think climate would be much of an issue in Toronto.

How many FEET of snow does Vancouver get?

How many ice storms does Vancouver get?

How many extreme heat days does Vancouver get?

Comparing the 2 city's climates is like comparing Edmonton to Cairo.

[Metro-One]

Toronto's climate is pretty tame on the national level (for the big cities over 1 000 000, after Vancouver Toronto is arguably the second most hospitable climate for such infrastructure), there are also many cities around the world with similar climates (such as Chicago) with significant amounts of elevated infrastructure.

[eemy]

Even so, Toronto goes through far more freeze-thaw cycles than Vancouver.

[Metro-One]

Well I do understand that it would likely require somewhat more maintenance for such elevated rail lines in Toronto, but I still don't think its out of reach, thats all.

[WhipperSnapper]

The only place to put an elevated line in Toronto is down the middle of the street which no one wants. The skytrain is also a lot lighter and smaller than the Toronto subway as well.

I don't see any savings building a new Kennedy Station, build a new bridge over Eglinton and, move the transmission lines to run the line through the hydro corridor. GO can make use of the existing SRT corridor as well.

[Innsertnamehere]

Upon demolition GO will probably use the Srt corridor to install a 3rd passing track on the stouffville line to allow for express trips on the line.

[TorontoDrew]

Just about every study has shown having a subway over an LRT will ad time to the average commute because of the fewer stops and further bus commutes for its riders. People in Scarborough were lied to by a mayor who knew nothing about transit and managed to convince those in Scarborough that the Transit City LRT was nothing more then a streetcar and that somehow made them second class citizens. The sad thing is they actually believed it. Every transit expert said LRT was the way to go and best way to expand transit across the entire city. Now I wonder what's on hold and how far behind this three stop extension will actually cost the city.

[Innsertnamehere]

just about every study? the extension isn't some massively studied piece of academia. The TTC produced a very basic report for council, and thats about it.

And generally time savings are supposed to be considerably faster as only a few low use routes lose access to the subway while 90% of the users of the corridor get reduced travel times. The only major loser in the scarborough subway debate is Centennial college, which in the end contributes but a small amount of ridership to the subway and could easily get by with a short express bus route between the campus and STC, with likely roughly equal travel times to what the LRT would have given. The faster speed of the subway tied with the lack of a transfer at Kennedy result in some pretty major time gains, Travel time to STC from Kennedy should be cut by roughly 6 minutes presuming a 4 minute transfer at Kennedy for the LRT. Trip will go from 15 minutes to 9 minutes.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

Just about every study has shown having a subway over an LRT will ad time to the average commute because of the fewer stops and further bus commutes for its riders.

Ummm, you do know that people would have to arrive at the LRT or subway mostly by feeder bus right?

The subway does not add commute time. It reduces it, and that is one of the main reasons for the higher ridership.

If the LRT so better serves people, then why would it have lower ridership?

The sad thing is they actually believed it. Every transit expert said LRT was the way to go and best way to expand transit across the entire city. Now I wonder what's on hold and how far behind this three stop extension will actually cost the city.

I really take issue with that comment, as every transit expert has not said the LRT was the best way to go. Any expert who was against the LRT was silenced. I saw it first hand at a public meeting, where one experts came out in favor of the subway, and was basically shut up by the rest of the experts and pro LRT crowd.

And the expert was right that studies showing the subway would attract more people to transit and be a better option, where buried in city hall to keep people from seeing the truth.

So please do not say all experts stand for the LRT. Because I know plenty of experts who do not. The sad thing is, they have not been given the same amount of resources or attention to tell their side, as the LRT crowd have.