Winnipeg | Forks Redevelopment | Parcel 4 - Rail Side Initiative | Proposals

[GreyGarden]

I 100% think that Winnipeg's downtown and exchange still require an insane amount of work and revitalization. Although I do recognize the progress the city has made and is making.

I'm optimistic about the downtowns future though. I sort of view revitalization in terms of a exponential growth graph where improvements come slowly in the beginning(which is where I think we are, late to the party compared to other larger cities) but gains should increase more rapidly over time. It's anyone's guess how many years away we are from seeing more rapid revitalization. Maybe 5, 10, 15, I honestly have no clue.

It's been said many times but I think the key to the area is people, that's why I love the concept of this project. I believe that once our downtown is at 30,000 residents getting another 5000 will take way less time than what it currently takes. Revitalization will follow with people.

[WolselyMan]

Originally Posted by trueviking

Trust me. I get it. It's the whole point. Using the natural attraction and livability of the green space at the Forks to create an urban neighbourhood. We completely agree. It's what makes the opportunity so great.

Do you know the difference between New York, Vancouver and Winnipeg? Density.

The Forks is a large enough green space (along with all the other parks I mentioned) to achieve what you are talking about. Have you ever been to Bonnycastle Park? Probably not. Nobody has. But it's beautiful. How about Upper Fort Garry park. Ever seen anyone in there?

We don't need more green space downtown to be a catalyst for population growth. We need population growth to fill all the green space we have.

The Forks is a very unique opportunity. A lot of people will live there that would not otherwise choose to live two blocks away at SkyCity. The developers lining up to develop there understand this. It is a market that is not available in the rest of downtown. If they cancelled Railside all those developers wouldn't start looking for parking lots across the tracks to fill. The attraction to them. The catalyst. Is that it is at the Forks. The same attraction that will bring buyers for their units.

The green space at the Forks is disconnected from the city. The only way to engage it is to bring the city to the Forks.

Why can't the Forks be what it is. Why would it be better if it was bigger? Has anyone ever thought the Forks isn't big enough? The Forks itself wants to have people living there to make the market sustainable and bring people there permanently instead of being a drive up destination.

I share your dream of filling all the parking lots downtown but I don't think putting a forest in the parking lots at the Forks will help achieve that. I do think that 1000 people living at the Forks, many of which would otherwise be living in the suburbs, is a greater catalyst for filling those other lots. People don't live downtown because nobody lives downtown. Not because there's not enough parks.

This is an opportunity to redefine urban living in winnipeg that can not be achieved in the Exchange or in a tower on a parking lot. It could make people think urban living is attractive. The existing park space is the catalyst for that. We don't need more. We need to exploit that catalyst. Just like they did in New York.

I get the argument that the area is a piece of low hanging fruit. It's an already vibrant that we area we can strategically use as a "home base" to radiate redevelopment outwards into the rest of downtown. It's such an obvious opportunity that it sounds like a broken match to even suggest that we should reserve it for parkspace.

But what I'm pointing out is that European villages, mid rise developments and high rise condos can be built on any patch of concrete. A large, uninterrupted and continuous expanse of urban greenery cannot; and this is our ONLY chance we'll ever get to create a space like that, before it will be lost forever. Sure, there may not be demand for a large park like that today, but what about in the future? What about in 20 years, 30 years, or 50? A lot can change in that small amount of time. The population of downtown Winnipeg could have octupled by that time. Do you still think bonnycastle & steve juba park, plus the mild greenery at the forks today will be enough for them? Will they think that? Or will they regret that we didn't seize the opportunity when we had the chance?

Saying that Bonny Castle & Steven Juba park + the existing greenery at the forks is enough for downtown Winnipeg is kinda like saying that sunset beach, Devonian Harbor, David Lam and Nelson park is enough greenspace for downtown Vancouver. Technically true, as in the ground beneath everyone's feet will still be solid, grocery shelves will be regularly filled with food, hospitals will be top of the notch and you'll still be able to watch your netflix shows in your condo suite. But the area will seize being one of the most unique urban centers in all of North America that offers urbanites an amenity that very few cities in the world can brag that they have - a full fledged piece of nature right in your backyard.

And if you wanna convince NIMBY card carrying, aesthetically sensitive suburbanites who just moved into their new home in Waverly West that urban living is nothing to be afraid of, you'll need all the greenspace you can get to fully win them over, Because nothing scares them off more than the claustrophobic thought of being trapped in a concrete jungle.

[esquire]

^ With the construction of large-scale projects like Shaw Park and CMHR that take up much of the land in the area, I'd say that the ship has sailed on The Forks as a kind of natural recreation park. You'll never duplicate anything resembling Central Park or Stanley Park in that little strip of land along the railway tracks... it would be the most half-assed natural park there is. It's an urban area and there is no point in pretending otherwise.

[Cyro]

^Abundance of green space..


https://www.gov.mb.ca

..Although noise from the rail line on parcel 4 could very well play a role in the future..Well that lot will be empty for over a decade or more if were following the timetable..

[Urban recluse]

Now, about being able to use that river walk in the spring...

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Things are improving, for sure. But come on... who could really stand there with a straight face and say that downtown Winnipeg of 2017 is wildly different than downtown Winnipeg of 15 or 20 years ago? I certainly couldn't. The challenges that existed then still remain now.

Compared to the accelerated change witnessed in Canadian cities larger than Winnipeg over that timeframe, we've barely budged. Some areas within downtown have certainly changed... the Exchange being perhaps the best example. But on the whole? Barely.

I think the biggest difference, although anecdotal, is that it's actually "cool" to go downtown again. While there were definitely always some good restaurants and bars downtown, there is infinitely more to do now, and the perceptions/feeling toward downtown has changed. While you could write that off as hearsay, I'm confident the Chamber or Tourism has some hard facts to back up investment and spending changes in downtown.

Definitely a lot of work to go in terms of residents, but we're trending in the right direction.

Originally Posted by bryanscott

If the city were to mandate that trains slow down well before the curve, the issue could be easily resolved.

Unfortunately the city has absolutely no say in that. Federal government would have to make a change to the law as to how fast they can go inside urban areas. CN likely wouldn't listen to a request either as it would cost them money.

Originally Posted by oftheMoon

Beyond the bricks and mortar there is a fundamental shift in people wanting to come downtown for a variety of reasons in numbers that we didn't see 10 - 15 years ago. I find it hard hard to argue the changes that have been made which drastically improve the quality of being there.

Yup. It's definitely a much better environment to be in then 15-20 years ago. While we may be moving exceptionally slow, I think it was a chicken or egg scenario in terms of people wanting to live downtown, and now with lots of public investment in public spaces, the tides seem to be turning.

[Cyro]

Originally Posted by Urban recluse

Now, about being able to use that river walk in the spring...

There's a problem?


TorontoSun.com


Solution: Increase the elevation of the river walkways and infrastructure. Technically feasible, extremely costly..Back to square one.How many reports and promises have been made over the years?

[Urban recluse]

It is a major amenity for downtown. How can it not be fixed?

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by Urban recluse

It is a major amenity for downtown. How can it not be fixed?

Because clearly city council and other government entities fail to recognize its importance.

[WolselyMan]

The CMHR is actually designed to seamlessly mix in with the surrounding natural environment, and would be the perfect man made structure to compliment a natural recreation park. Shaw park is a different story all together. Sure, by today's standards for our downtown it serves a very helpful role in bringing hoards of sports fans downtown who otherwise wouldn't have that much of a reason be there in the first place, but lets be honest - Is a stadium for a MINOR LEAGUE baseball team really something that's worthy of hogging up so much space on a site as historically eventful and anthropologically precious as the forks? Imagine all the people in the past 6000 years that have been slaughtered in wars on the ground that Shaw Park currently stands on; let alone the damn skate park. I thought the forks was supposed to be a "world renowned national attraction". World renowned for what? A skate park, a small theater school for minors, and maybe even a waterslide? I'm not saying that any of these things are bad ideas, but they could be put literally anywhere else in our downtown, and would serve those areas much better than a piece of former wasteland completely isolated from any remnant of civilization in all 4 directions. And yes, I get the appeal of the forks being a "blank slate" of sorts that we have the opportunity to develop, from the ground up, anything our imaginations could possibly be capable of conjuring. But if all you can think of is a disjointed set of parking lots connecting a bunch of generic hotels and gimmicky tourist traps, then you might understand why I find it a much more fascinating proposal to just let nature takeover.

[OTA in Winnipeg]

I've been in the Exchange over a number of weekends lately. It is surprising how many people are around and parking is all taken. Lots of shops open. It wasn't like this 15/20 years ago. Not even close.

[trueviking]

Well wolseley. We will have to agree to disagree. It don't see how a giant green space is a catalyst. We simply do not have the density and won't for a hundred years to support that scale of park. I believe downtown is better served with smaller public spaces, river parks, pocket parks etc that are interspersed across the urban fabric. Dropping Assiniboine park in the middle of the city would be a huge mistake. People love the idea of parks but the reality is we don't go to them very often. Maybe if the existing green space was even remotely close to being active I would agree. The giant empty park they just built on Main Street proves we don't need more. It's fantasy to compare Winnipeg to Vancouver. They have ten times the population.

And I don't think you can build condos just anywhere. This is a special opportunity. I feel the same as you about that. But I see the opportunity is to build an amazing new urban community from scratch. That opportunity almost never happens. Developers are lining up because it is specifically at the Forks. Proving you can't just build anywhere. To activate the Forks green space a population must be immediately adjacent.

Anyways. It's a wasted argument. It's not going to be a park.

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by trueviking

Well wolseley. We will have to agree to disagree. It don't see how a giant green space is a catalyst. We simply do not have the density and won't for a hundred years to support that scale of park. I believe downtown is better served with smaller public spaces, river parks, pocket parks etc that are interspersed across the urban fabric. Dropping Assiniboine park in the middle of the city would be a huge mistake. People love the idea of parks but the reality is we don't go to them very often. Maybe if the existing green space was even remotely close to being active I would agree. The giant empty park they just built on Main Street proves we don't need more. It's fantasy to compare Winnipeg to Vancouver. They have ten times the population.

Exactly. There is SO much greenspace at The Forks already that's mostly empty other than the few festivals every year. If anything, we should push to make better use of the open grass areas outside of the main Festival Park one. There's almost never anyone in the grassed area to the right of the trees by Festival Park, to the right of the Children's Museum, and behind CMHR. Fill that with more trees or a "nature reserve" ... build a publicly accessible outdoor gym (still don't get why we don't have these)... something.

I always laugh at the "greenspace" argument at The Forks. It is generally" they're taking away all the greenspace" ... yet forget that anywhere that doesn't have grass now, has never had grass. Even CMHR was built on sand/gravel lot. Its construction actually resulted in more greenspace at The Forks.

[1ajs]

and where soctia bank stage is now was gravel parking befor it was a stage same with the inn at the forks. there was some grass area around there but mostly parking

i can remember standing in midle of 80,000 people and the wso setup on a small stage playing music during the fireworks for canada day one yr musta been in the 90's

[buzzg]

And the plans will involved some more pocket parks and plazas, plus the highline.

On the rail relocation thing there. If it were to ever happen, the old line would make one of the most incredible highline AT paths in Canada. Imagine converting it along the lines of The Trestle/Great Rivers Greenway in St. Louis. Google it - a former abandoned raised rail line was converted into a massive bike path/park that runs all over the city.

[1ajs]

so we would loose our pasinger rail?

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

so we would loose our pasinger rail?

Just making a comment on what others were mentioning.

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

so we would loose our pasinger rail?

Just making a comment on what others were mentioning. And, in all reality, I would not be surprised if VIA was gone in 15 years.

[Bluenote]

Originally Posted by bryanscott

Questions about the trains that run past this area:

What does all that development mean for the rail traffic? Will it be re-routed?

I have to say, I work in the vicinity, and the noise level at that bend in the tracks in completely unbearable. Walking form my building to my car is excruciating—some days I can't do it without sticking my fingers in my ears. This is no exaggeration either. A co-worker measured the noise that one particular train made at 107 decibels.

You couldn't pay me enough to live in proximity to that racket.

I'd love to live beside a train track like that. Put me to sleep. The noise isn't that bad. You must have extremely sensitive ears.
And before you say I don't have a clue at the noise. I grew up beside main line CP. I know it well.

[goldenboi]

Why do we have this idea that residential development isn't a worthy use to pursue at the Forks? I understand that it is a historically significant area and everything, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't have humans living there. The fact that the Forks is a significant and important area to us is a huge reason to have people living there. I think if the forks is turned into more of a sustainable urban community, as opposed to a theme park for tourists and people driving in from the suburbs, this would do it so much more justice. This thought that we should separate residents from the places that are important to us is just so backwards. The best way to experience a place is to live, breath, and sleep in it. And if we don't have anyone doing that at the Forks, it's kind of a waste. It's sad to see such an amazing place so desolate besides on weekends and for events.

Now with regards to green space... it has been said multiple times, but THE ENTIRE FORKS IS ESSENTIALLY ONE BIG GREEN SPACE. And I'm positive that there will be an effort to include greenery in this project. The suggestion that the forks is going to build some "concrete jungle" is just ridiculous. They are smarter than that.