AUSTIN | Transportation Updates

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by drummer

I hope LoneStar comes into fruition. I really like it. I was a bit confused at first when looking at the map as it didn't show any station(s) in Round Rock, but then the next slide or two mentioned TBD for stations in Round Rock - suggesting that a specific location is yet to be determined...am I reading that right? I remember older presentations/maps having one labeled, so I'm not too concerned. Not having a station or two in Round Rock would be a huge mistake. I do like the proposed spur to Taylor.

Listening to the video, it sounded like it was still in flux. He said it used to be 1 station, then _3_ stations, and that there were more meetings planned with round rock. 3 seems like overkill just for RR.

Originally Posted by drummer

Edit: Just had another thought - the spur to Taylor could eventually be extended to Bryan/College Station and onto the Houston metro area. While it certainly wouldn't be HSR (the best method for connecting Austin to Houston via rail, in my opinion), it could still provide better connectivity than currently exists.

Is that assuming the Dallas/Houston HSR has a stop in B/CS? Could be useful in that case, probably too far for conventional rail onto Houston to get much use. Even Taylor to Bryan may be a bit of a stretch, it's over 60 miles with not a lot in between.

Is there existing rail connecting Taylor to Bryan?

A more direct route of HSR between Austin and Houston (approximately along 290) would be the long term goal, of course.

[_Matt]

Round Rock has not signed the interlocal agreement yet, so until then, I don't think we'll see anything locked in for them.

[drummer]

Originally Posted by Novacek

Listening to the video, it sounded like it was still in flux. He said it used to be 1 station, then _3_ stations, and that there were more meetings planned with round rock. 3 seems like overkill just for RR.



Is that assuming the Dallas/Houston HSR has a stop in B/CS? Could be useful in that case, probably too far for conventional rail onto Houston to get much use. Even Taylor to Bryan may be a bit of a stretch, it's over 60 miles with not a lot in between.

Is there existing rail connecting Taylor to Bryan?

A more direct route of HSR between Austin and Houston (approximately along 290) would be the long term goal, of course.

My thought on rail from the Austin area to Bryan/College Station is more of a very-far-down-the-road regional connection, not so much contingent on HSR having a station in the area (or, more specifically, somewhere in the middle of no where between College Station and Hunstville). Of course, HSR between metros could (and should) happen.

Regarding rail from Taylor to Bryan, I know that a rail line (whether currently in use or not) exists from Taylor to Hearne, and lines exists from Bryan up to Hearne as well. A very quick glance at Google Earth tells me that much. Whether or not they could be utilized in their current state is another thing entirely.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by drummer

My thought on rail from the Austin area to Bryan/College Station is more of a very-far-down-the-road regional connection, not so much contingent on HSR having a station in the area (or, more specifically, somewhere in the middle of no where between College Station and Hunstville). Of course, HSR between metros could (and should) happen.

Regarding rail from Taylor to Bryan, I know that a rail line (whether currently in use or not) exists from Taylor to Hearne, and lines exists from Bryan up to Hearne as well. A very quick glance at Google Earth tells me that much. Whether or not they could be utilized in their current state is another thing entirely.

Any rail corridor that still exists can be used for expanded commuter rail operations - assuming the freight railroad company that owns the corridor is willing to share it. I would like to point out that Lone Star Rail doesn't own even an inch of a railroad corridor yet, and that CapMetro owns the railroad corridors to Leander and to Elgin (i.e. the Red and proposed Blue Lines).
The corridor Lone Star wishes to use between San Antonio and Taylor is owned by Union Pacific - and they will only sell the corridor to Lone Star if someone else is willing to pay sp they can build a new parallel railroad corridor. TIFs alone isn't going to finance building the UP a brand new freight corridor and convert the existing corridor for commuter rail operations. Without dedicated taxes or funding, it's hard to see Lone Star ever becoming more than a rail planning organization.

[drummer]

Speaking of which, I thought there was progress on the new (or future) UP line east of town. Is that not true yet? Any updates on LSR obtaining the line and moving forward on stuff?

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by electricron

Any rail corridor that still exists can be used for expanded commuter rail operations - assuming the freight railroad company that owns the corridor is willing to share it. I would like to point out that Lone Star Rail doesn't own even an inch of a railroad corridor yet, and that CapMetro owns the railroad corridors to Leander and to Elgin (i.e. the Red and proposed BlueGreen Lines).
The corridor Lone Star wishes to use between San Antonio and Taylor is owned by Union Pacific - and they will only sell the corridor to Lone Star if someone else is willing to pay sp they can build a new parallel railroad corridor. TIFs alone isn't going to finance building the UP a brand new freight corridor and convert the existing corridor for commuter rail operations. Without dedicated taxes or funding, it's hard to see Lone Star ever becoming more than a rail planning organization.

Uh, did you even read that presentation? It addresses literally everything you said.

And no, they're not claiming TIF (they use a different acronym) is paying the capital expenses, only operating.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by drummer

Speaking of which, I thought there was progress on the new (or future) UP line east of town. Is that not true yet? Any updates on LSR obtaining the line and moving forward on stuff?

The "progress" is the federal environmental impact study. It's a required prerequisite, but it's not visible construction you can point to and see forward movement.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by drummer

or, more specifically, somewhere in the middle of no where between College Station and Hunstville

Ah, last I heard the HSR project was still looking at maybe having a stop in the middle at Bryan/College Station.

Looks like that's not the case (at least not actually in the city).

http://www.theeagle.com/news/a_m/hou...16e6dcaf6.html

[hereinaustin]

What would it cost to drop all $2.4 Billion on building a totally new line just for commuter rail and not utilizing the UP line at all? If it costs $1.6 Billion to build a new UP line towards the east from scratch and a another $800 million to renovate the existing UP line, why not spend all the funds on creating the most ideal route possible (i.e. no at-grade crossings)? Why does the UP line even matter? It's not all that well-aligned.

Or are the funds dependent on building the UP line?

[electricron]

Originally Posted by hereinaustin

What would it cost to drop all $2.4 Billion on building a totally new line just for commuter rail and not utilizing the UP line at all? If it costs $1.6 Billion to build a new UP line towards the east from scratch and a another $800 million to renovate the existing UP line, why not spend all the funds on creating the most ideal route possible (i.e. no at-grade crossings)? Why does the UP line even matter? It's not all that well-aligned.

Or are the funds dependent on building the UP line?

Excellent questions which I can't answer, but I can speculate.
The existing UP corridor gets you into downtown Austin and San Antonio, and runs very close to all the other downtowns in all the other cities and towns. A new corridor will not, even if it followed the I-35 corridor.
Note the Texas Central HSR corridor following transmission lines will not either, only reaching downtown Dallas by running through the publicly owned Trinity River Floodway.
But let's look at possible alternate rail corridors the Lone Star Rail could use.
(1) I-35, (2) an electric transmission line, and (3) Tx130 Turnpike.
(1) I-35 median was used to expand the freeway to 6 and 8 lanes, it's not available for a rail line. Although running the rail line between the freeway's main lanes and the service roads is possible, just not sure how affordable that would be.
(2) Electric transmission lines bypass downtowns of cites, that's one reason why Texas Central picked them to decrease costs. Commuter rail trains need higher density around their stations, not relevantly vacant farm and ranch land.
(3) The median of TX130 might be the preferred alternative for the new bypass UP rail corridor. The turnpike bypasses all the towns and cities, which is why the turnpike was built there, to lessen costs. Again, idea for freight trains to bypass congestion, but not ideal for commuter trains. Although it would be idea for a HSR line wishing to minimize stations to maintain higher train speeds.

The UP corridor is ideal for commuter trains because it approaches downtowns and allows placing stations in pockets of higher density all along the route. Any other routing will probably have to run in very low density just to reduce the capital costs so it can be affordable to build.

So I fully understand why they need the UP corridor. What I can't understand is why it is cheaper to build an entirely new bypass corridor for the UP to the east instead of building a second or third track in the existing UP corridor. I believe it would be cheaper to copy what UTA did in Utah, i.e. buy half the UP corridor and lay dedicated passenger tracks in that half. When and where the UP needs to reach industries and sidings across the dedicated passenger track, build a flyover like UTA did; passenger train tracks over the existing freight main or spur tracks. Where the corridor is too narrow to fit all the tracks, it might be necessary to purchase some more land. But I don't expect that much extra land would have to be purchased.

While the EIS is underway, and even assuming the FRA funds half the capital costs, there's still no funding sources identified for the local 50% match. The idea that the State of Texas will start financing commuter rail operations in Austin when it has refused to do so in Dallas and Houston will cause politicians representing half the population of the state to have severe digestion ailments. The lack of state funding also applies for Houston to Dallas slow or high speed intercity train service. I just don't see the state funding any part of commuter or intercity train service between Austin and San Antonio. There's no precedent set by the state funding train services between it two largest metros.

[drummer]

Originally Posted by Novacek

Ah, last I heard the HSR project was still looking at maybe having a stop in the middle at Bryan/College Station.

Looks like that's not the case (at least not actually in the city).

http://www.theeagle.com/news/a_m/hou...16e6dcaf6.html

I'm not actually opposed to the stop in Bryan/College Station as it doesn't have to be used for every trip - maybe a couple per day or whatever is most effective/economical. DFW-Houston and back will need more trips, of course. However, a stop in Grimes County - not near much of anything - is kinda silly. I know the area would inevitably build up (especially with Houston's NW growth) and they could connect B/CS and Huntsville better to that stop (or at least run buses or something), but it's still a band-aid solution to a middle stop in my opinion. It makes more sense to put it actually in B/CS, but that's an discussion they've long since finished, so it seems.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by hereinaustin

What would it cost to drop all $2.4 Billion on building a totally new line just for commuter rail and not utilizing the UP line at all?

Where? Other than that UP line, there's no existing RoW in Austin.

Originally Posted by hereinaustin

It's not all that well-aligned.

other than the annoying curve it does downtown, it's pretty well aligned. And it hits all the major cities on the I35 corridor.

Originally Posted by hereinaustin

Or are the funds dependent on building the UP line?

Technically you'd lose out on the freight relocation fund (which is only part). Other federal funds would still be a possibility, but you'll never get federal funds for a new commuter rail that doesn't go to Downtown Austin and doesn't go to Downtown SA.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by electricron

What I can't understand is why it is cheaper to build an entirely new bypass corridor for the UP to the east instead of building a second or third track in the existing UP corridor.

1. You'd lose out on all the benefits of the freight relocation. Even if the commuter rail were to never run (not that I think that's likely) relocating freight outside the I35 corridor has _enormous_ economic benefits.
Those freight trains (there's like 40 or so per day) contribute a lot to congestion. Since there's so many at grade crossings, lots of people end up stopped for 5 minutes or more waiting for a slooowww train to pass.
Not only in Austin, but in the other cities as well (supposedly it's really bad in San Marcos).

Hell, you'd probably end up with people missing their commuter train because they're stuck on the other side of a freight train.

There's environmental benefits as well. Presumably it would help with our ozone attainment (which is on the order of $Billions overall).

2. You're assuming there's room, especially in those locations where a station will probably be rail-adjacent (like 35th street, there's literally no room. Are you going to eminent domain lanes from Mopac to build a station?). And especially downtown.

3. You've just delayed the inevitable. Assuming the commuter rail is successful, you're eventually going to want to add more passing sidings and such. You're going to need that RoW, so now you're still building a freight bypass in 30 years or so, but now it's a lot more expensive (because all that empty land is no longer quite so empty).

4. You're assuming UP will go along with it. With the current plan, they get the benefit of being able to move a bunch of their shipments more efficiently.

With your plan, their existing freight moves no quicker than it did before. And they experience construction delays for years.
They just get a bunch of new liability from having people and passenger trains by their freight.

5. You're assuming it would actually be cheaper in the end. No guarantee of that. Especially if you have to eminent domain a bunch of land in the central cores of cities, build a bunch of flyovers like you propose, etc.

Originally Posted by electricron

While the EIS is underway, and even assuming the FRA funds half the capital costs, there's still no funding sources identified for the local 50% match.

The freight relocation fund, in part.

Originally Posted by electricron

The idea that the State of Texas will start financing commuter rail operations in Austin when it has refused to do so in Dallas and Houston

The State of Texas _already_ gave Austin a bunch of money for commuter rail. It's certainly not unprecedented.

TEX Rail commuter rail seems to have gotten state funds committed as well.

http://www.fta.dot.gov/documents/TX_...ofile_FY14.pdf

[Tech House]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

My great great grandfather founded the UT school of journalism, and my family has very deep and continuing roots in Texas journalism professionally... so I kind of take offense to that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Harding_Mayes

Gurrl, pleeze! What does your great-grandfather have to do with the current tragic condition of "journalism" in the USA? I think the problem is almost entirely due to the internet. Everyone's a journalist now, without formal education. If anything, I'm complimenting your ggf for the fine journalists who've gone before our time. Nowadays, the writing is atrocious almost everywhere. I taught a few Marketing courses at UT in the mid-90s, and even way back then the quality of students' writing was horrific compared to my generation's, although I was probably in the age group that was at the vangaurd of the decline of Western civilization. You're welcome.

[The ATX]

Originally Posted by Tech House

Gurrl, pleeze! What does your great-grandfather have to do with the current tragic condition of "journalism" in the USA? I think the problem is almost entirely due to the internet. Everyone's a journalist now, without formal education. If anything, I'm complimenting your ggf for the fine journalists who've gone before our time. Nowadays, the writing is atrocious almost everywhere. I taught a few Marketing courses at UT in the mid-90s, and even way back then the quality of students' writing was horrific compared to my generation's, although I was probably in the age group that was at the vangaurd of the decline of Western civilization. You're welcome.

I was hoping you'd jump in there. It wasn't my battle.

[drummer]

Originally Posted by Tech House

Nowuhdays, thee righting iz uhtroshus allmost everywear.

Fixed that for ya.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by Tech House

Gurrl, pleeze! What does your great-grandfather have to do with the current tragic condition of "journalism" in the USA?

Did you miss the "continuing" part? Half of my family are currently either journalists or work behind the scenes in some capacity.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by Tech House

I think the problem is almost entirely due to the internet. Everyone's a journalist now, without formal education. If anything, I'm complimenting your ggf for the fine journalists who've gone before our time. Nowadays, the writing is atrocious almost everywhere. I taught a few Marketing courses at UT in the mid-90s, and even way back then the quality of students' writing was horrific compared to my generation's, although I was probably in the age group that was at the vangaurd of the decline of Western civilization. You're welcome.

Yeah, well your generation wasn't much better. You just happened to be isolated from it and thus have rose colored glasses for how the past was in actuality: not that great. And keep in mind that your generation WAS at the vanguard of the beginning of the fall of the U.S. AND were the generation responsible for raising and educating my own generation. Thanks for letting us down and leaving us behind.

[Tech House]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

Yeah, well your generation wasn't much better. You just happened to be isolated from it and thus have rose colored glasses for how the past was in actuality: not that great. And keep in mind that your generation WAS at the vanguard of the beginning of the fall of the U.S. AND were the generation responsible for raising and educating my own generation. Thanks for letting us down and leaving us behind.

You may have misinterpreted my comment. I am not proud of my generation for being on the vanguard of the decline of civilization, hence the sarcastic "you're welcome." I'm extremely aware of the profound difference just within my own family, where my elder siblings are vastly more literate than I. But about those rose-colored glasses, I grew up in an upper-middle-class family in Santa Barbara, 'nuff said. My world view is totally skewed by having lived one of the most idyllic childhoods imaginable, barring the intra-familial weirdness that everyone has to deal with on some level. So anyway, I get your point. Also my perceptions about the quality of a generation's writing are likewise skewed by class distinction, because in the past, most published writing was the province of the upper classes, and now we have a more democratized, populist world. This is actually a very timely subject for me, because I was just thinking earlier today about how I wish the Internet could be curated so that it didn't so profoundly dumb-down the masses.

Regarding the taking of offense at my original remark, I didn't want to let that slide when we're in a time of hypersensitivity run amok. It's impossible to have an opinion about anything whatsoever that isn't potentially offensive to someone. If I have a problem with something, then I have a problem and it's up to me to deal with it. If I'm offended, then I generally consider that to be my problem because I'm the one who got worked up about it. There's a balance to be found, of course, and it's in discussions like this that we help one another to find the right balance, so please don't take further offense at my shrugging-off of this particular slight.

To even begin to attempt to bring this back on topic is a feat requiring a futuristic transportation system capable of ferrying the remote suburban content of this comment back into the urban core. I'm somewhere twixt Florence and Briggs, help!!!

[KevinFromTexas]

Hey, but they did have good music. So I'll call us even. I only use the radio now days when I want to be jolted awake when I really don't actually want to be jolted awake.