PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[reparcsyks]

Dranoff you mad lad!! Give us another Arthaus-quality building here and you are forgiven for Symphony House.

[PHLtoNYC]

Transformative for Western Walnut! Is this Trammell Crow's first residential project in Philadelphia?
Hopefully this news helps 2204 Walnut move along too!

[Mayormccheese]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

Transformative for Western Walnut! Is this Trammell Crow's first residential project in Philadelphia?
Hopefully this news helps 2204 Walnut move along too!

This really is great news. I hope this also sparks some development at 20th & walnut

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by Mayormccheese

This really is great news. I hope this also sparks some development at 20th & walnut

That's GOTTA be next.

[skyhigh07]

It’s time for national high end retailers to start moving westward beyond Rittenhouse Square along Walnut. The Laurel will be pretty transformative when it opens. There’s plenty of brownstone storefronts that could be renovated to suit new boutique retail (*see Bang and Olufsen).

I’m getting tired of the musical chairs along the other half of Walnut. Other urban markets seem to have held their luxury retailers. I don’t see why Rittenhouse can’t at least of a block of upper tier retail at this point (Burberry, Van Cleef etc..)

[Skang]

Hopefully these lot developed in the next year but this side of the city (Schuylkill ) , Philly could look like Melbourne Australia if we get these lot develop with high rise , it would look real nice

[Skang]

What’s going up on 20th and Walnut?

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

It’s time for national high end retailers to start moving westward beyond Rittenhouse Square along Walnut. The Laurel will be pretty transformative when it opens. There’s plenty of brownstone storefronts that could be renovated to suit new boutique retail (*see Bang and Olufsen).

I’m getting tired of the musical chairs along the other half of Walnut. Other urban markets seem to have held their luxury retailers. I don’t see why Rittenhouse can’t at least of a block of upper tier retail at this point (Burberry, Van Cleef etc..)

This has kind of perplexed me since I moved here. Boston, DC, and NYC all have downtown high end luxury stores. Seems like Philly is moving in that direction with Rag & Bone, Faherty, etc. Although I hope that doesn’t come at the expense of stores I can actually shop at like Uniqlo. I’d also love to see retail fill
In from Broad to 15th and then past 18th. 19th feels a bit desolate past La Colombe before Target

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by Gatorade_Jim

This has kind of perplexed me since I moved here. Boston, DC, and NYC all have downtown high end luxury stores. Seems like Philly is moving in that direction with Rag & Bone, Faherty, etc. Although I hope that doesn’t come at the expense of stores I can actually shop at like Uniqlo. I’d also love to see retail fill
In from Broad to 15th and then past 18th. 19th feels a bit desolate past La Colombe before Target

Well clearly the issue is that Philadelphia the city has a lower spending power compared to NYC, DC, and etc. we have richer suburbs so it makes sense why "high class" stores are in KOP, and the like, and not in Center City.

We all know a good amount of the population is lower on the income scale so it doesn't make sense to have a street like Walnut or Chestnut with all "High class" Stores when the majority of the population can't even afford it.

Now as we see with the shift in people moving from NYC to Philly, and the city improving and growing we are seeing projects such as Arthaus or the Laurel showing the income is increasing, and high income things will follow.

The market is only gonna put out what it can bear.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by Gatorade_Jim

This has kind of perplexed me since I moved here. Boston, DC, and NYC all have downtown high end luxury stores. Seems like Philly is moving in that direction with Rag & Bone, Faherty, etc. Although I hope that doesn’t come at the expense of stores I can actually shop at like Uniqlo. I’d also love to see retail fill
In from Broad to 15th and then past 18th. 19th feels a bit desolate past La Colombe before Target

Same. I don’t think it necessarily has to do with Philly having a “poor population”. Greater Center City is the second most densely populated downtown area in the United States. There’s considerable wealth in Society Hill, Rittenhouse and other parts of the city. Not to mention tourists, suburban commuters and several high end luxury hotels within blocks from one another (Four Seasons, The Ritz, W).

Even though there may be more people who live in poverty in Philly compared to say Boston, there are likely more people here that can afford luxury retail. Boston really isn’t that big of a city relative to Philly and yet it has one or two blocks of uber luxury retail along Newbury St.

I know this issue has been discussed on here extensively, but I still feel like there’s part of the explanation that’s missing. Maybe its partially due to KOP that pulls in high end brands, but Chicago has Oakbrook and DC has Tyson’s Corner. Or maybe Philly’s urban revitalization happened a bit later and we’re still catching up. Hard to say, but it’ll be interesting to see what happens after The Laurel opens. It makes quite the statement.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

Same. I don’t think it necessarily has to do with Philly having a “poor population”. Greater Center City is the second most densely populated downtown area in the United States. There’s considerable wealth in Society Hill, Rittenhouse and other parts of the city. Not to mention tourists and suburban commuters.

Even though there may be more people who live in poverty in Philly compared to say Boston, there are likely more people here that can afford luxury retail. Boston really isn’t that big of a city relative to Philly and yet it has one or two blocks of uber luxury retail along Newbury St.

Those brands come with an IMAGE, they sell an IMAGE with their products.

A good amount of people you named in those neighborhoods probably are fine with going to Target, or Macys type stores, boutiques, and buy the products, clothing, etc that they fill fit.

There's a different type of population, and mindset that care about LV, Gucci, Hermes, D&G, D&B, and etc.

Look at the type of stores we have downtown. Rolex is one, why do we have Rolex? Probably because we have or so (HAD) a big office complex in Center City Office workers wear watches it's a class thing, Suits, and watches go together like bread, and cheese and what do we have a good amount of in CC?

If you look at the stores in an area you will know what the area is like.

When it comes down to it it's simple economics.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

Those brands come with an IMAGE, they sell an IMAGE with their products.

A good amount of people you named in those neighborhoods probably are fine with going to Target, or Macys type stores, boutiques, and buy the products, clothing, etc that they fill fit.

There's a different type of population, and mindset that care about LV, Gucci, Hermes, D&G, D&B, and etc.

Look at the type of stores we have downtown. Rolex is one, why do we have Rolex? Probably because we have or so (HAD) a big office complex in Center City Office workers wear watches it's a class thing, Suits, and watches go together like bread, and cheese and what do we have a good amount of in CC?

If you look at the stores in an area you will know what the area is like.

When it comes down to it it's simple economics.

I think all of that is probably true. Also, we’re not as big as Chicago so perhaps having a Gucci store downtown AND at the nearest high end suburban mall isn’t economically feasible. Also, I don’t believe Boston has a suburban mall in the same league as KOP or Oakbrook. Therefore, perhaps luxury retailers there tend to amass more downtown. SF, NYC and DC are socio-economically on a different level so it’s hard to compare them to Philly at the moment. However, the growing number of flashy luxury towers in the city might start attracting the “different type of population” you mentioned.

Edit: Then again, after Google mapping downtown Charleston, which I’d categorize as either a large town or small city, it seems they have a much higher end retail scene than we do (Gucci, LV). The wealthy there essentially just live in old mansions in the historic district. There are no gleaming office or luxury condo towers there whatsoever. I mean, maybe Charlestonian women just like to lounge on their verandas wearing Gucci Kaftans and Fendi sunglasses. Who knows…

[iheartphilly]

^^
I wouldn't generalized too much about who buys luxury goods and who doesn't. Rolex doesn't mean you are an old man or woman and you are well to do. Lots of young kids, rich or not have Rolex watches on their wrist, if they want it. Nice power suits like the ones sold at Boyds probably needed for those in the business that need to dress that way and meet with clients or in an industry where that is still the norm except dress down Fridays. Handbags is the same, doesn't mean you have money or need to be old. It's just making a fashion or fashion accessory statement and people save up for it and front it. So called "poor" people like those LV handbags and Christian Louboutin shoes just as much as rich folks. I've seen it all over the place. Kinda link people that drive Mercedes or BMWs but live in the hood, kinda thing. There's a market for Luxury good but KOP has a lock on those shops for the most part in this area.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

There's a market for Luxury good but KOP has a lock on those shops for the most part in this area.

Yeah, I think that’s what it ultimately boils down to. When high end retailers want to stick their flag in the Greater Philadelphia region, they’ll end up leaning toward KOP unfortunately. If KOP didn’t exist, I’d expect we’d have a slew of higher tiered brands.

Sometimes stores will double up on Walnut and KOP (Aritiza, Vince, Tiffany etc). Hopefully going forward we’ll start seeing more of that.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

^^
I wouldn't generalized too much about who buys luxury goods and who doesn't. Rolex doesn't mean you are an old man or woman and you are well to do. Lots of young kids, rich or not have Rolex watches on their wrist, if they want it. Nice power suits like the ones sold at Boyds probably needed for those in the business that need to dress that way and meet with clients or in an industry where that is still the norm except dress down Fridays. Handbags is the same, doesn't mean you have money or need to be old. It's just making a fashion or fashion accessory statement and people save up for it and front it. So called "poor" people like those LV handbags and Christian Louboutin shoes just as much as rich folks. I've seen it all over the place. Kinda link people that drive Mercedes or BMWs but live in the hood, kinda thing. There's a market for Luxury good but KOP has a lock on those shops for the most part in this area.

Now this is what I live for right here.

I'm glad you brought up the topic of people on the lower income side wearing high end brands, and driving high end cars. I see it everyday, I know people who do it, I understand it.

The issue is these luxury brands want solid business, of course anyone can buy these brands to stunt, flex, or they just have daddies money like you mentioned, however they aren't catering to them, that's just extras on their plate, these companies want solid money from solid pockets.

75% of the time (and I'm being generous), a lot of designer items you see are in fact fake, albeit from "cowtown" "NYC" "Or in our very own "Philly".

Cars can be bought used, so that's not a good argument, what you want to look for in cars, and especially luxury cars are, are they maintained on the level they need to be?

BMW isn't opening up a dealership on Girard just because there's 100's of Beamer Benz (No) Bentley in Poplar.

Just like Gucci isn't opening a store on Walnut, because

young kids, rich or not have Rolex watches, Kinda like people that drive Mercedes or BMWs but live in the hood, kinda thing.

The high end stores will stay in KOP until the Market can support it, we already have luxury coming, it's here, it's building, it's growing.

[DZH22]

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

Boston really isn’t that big of a city relative to Philly and yet it has one or two blocks of uber luxury retail along Newbury St.

Instead of comparing 141 square miles to 48, expand out to cover the same amount of square miles and then it's right around the same amount of people. A few of Boston's inner suburbs are even denser than Boston itself.

[skyhigh07]

Originally Posted by DZH22

Instead of comparing 141 square miles to 48, expand out to cover the same amount of square miles and then it's right around the same amount of people. A few of Boston's inner suburbs are even denser than Boston itself.

I think the distinction is the urban population difference. Center City has the largest downtown population outside of NYC. I suppose it’s relative to some degree but I think the context of the discussion is urban population supporting urban retail.

Edit: Not to get into a city vs city debate but after doing some research I think the main difference is the population and geographic size of their urban cores. Downtown Boston is 1.5 sqm with a residential population of 27,000 while Center City stretches 7.7 sqm and has 170,000 residents. Average density may be similar but Center City probably has a much larger “urban setting” if that’s what you want to call it. It certainly feels that way as well.

It’s a complex yet interesting topic to discern what classifies as “urban” or a downtown and what doesn’t. There’s a lot of relativism involved. Some might even call Philly NYC’s 8th borough lol…

Not to mention if you’re talking about density and sprawl and took a sample size of LA then I suspect you’d all the sudden find that LA is not that big of a city. Again, it’s a complicated and relative subject I suppose…

[iheartphilly]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

Now this is what I live for right here.

I'm glad you brought up the topic of people on the lower income side wearing high end brands, and driving high end cars. I see it everyday, I know people who do it, I understand it.

The issue is these luxury brands want solid business, of course anyone can buy these brands to stunt, flex, or they just have daddies money like you mentioned, however they aren't catering to them, that's just extras on their plate, these companies want solid money from solid pockets.

75% of the time (and I'm being generous), a lot of designer items you see are in fact fake, albeit from "cowtown" "NYC" "Or in our very own "Philly".

Cars can be bought used, so that's not a good argument, what you want to look for in cars, and especially luxury cars are, are they maintained on the level they need to be?

BMW isn't opening up a dealership on Girard just because there's 100's of Beamer Benz (No) Bentley in Poplar.

Just like Gucci isn't opening a store on Walnut, because

The high end stores will stay in KOP until the Market can support it, we already have luxury coming, it's here, it's building, it's growing.

As someone that understands Luxury goods, the philly metro market is already supporting it. If you go out to KOP to the LV store and you like a bag that every other female likes, that bag is either no longer in stock or they will have you on a wait list in case it comes in the next shipment. As crazy as it sounds, luxury items are made in limited quantities so that the appeal is there for those that want it and own it. LV doesn't want to mass produce it to dilute the brand or its appeal or exclusiviity, if that makes sense.

W/R/T BMW/Mercedes dealearship on Girard ave, unfortunately, franchising a dealership is very hard if not impossible and the luxury or ultra-luxury companies have criteria/parameters in allowing for it and where it is located. Obviously, they want to put a dealership with enough land to build and store inventory around zip codes that are of high income. And, yes cars can be bought used, but I'm talking about newer models/years and not that 10 year old mercedes where the price has dropped like a stone. You are right with the newer high end luxury cars, that outside shops don't have the computer and tech used to fix them, but anything over 5 years, there are folks outside the dealership that know how to work and maintain foreign lux vehicles. If you are talking about Bentley, Ferrari, Rolls-Royce, etc and other ultra-high end car brands, yeah those aren't gonna happen in downtown Philly.

But in theory, you are correct luxury brands are marketing towards the rich, but at the end of the day, if you go to these stores and have the cash or credit, they don't care about your social status, they will sell it too you without blinking an eye. And, yes I am aware of fake lux goods, but we are only talking about authentic products.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

Well clearly the issue is that Philadelphia the city has a lower spending power compared to NYC, DC, and etc. we have richer suburbs so it makes sense why "high class" stores are in KOP, and the like, and not in Center City.

We all know a good amount of the population is lower on the income scale so it doesn't make sense to have a street like Walnut or Chestnut with all "High class" Stores when the majority of the population can't even afford it.

Now as we see with the shift in people moving from NYC to Philly, and the city improving and growing we are seeing projects such as Arthaus or the Laurel showing the income is increasing, and high income things will follow.

The market is only gonna put out what it can bear.

Even so. It's not like NY has 1 of these stores. It has like 6 Louis Vuittons, 4 Guccis, 4 Hermes, etc. (My numbers aren't exact, but many of these stores have outposts on Madison Avenue, Soho, Hudson Yards, and the Financial District. Some are also starting to open in Williamsburg.

So yes, we can support 1 even if we have 1 in the suburbs already. (They also have stores in the NYC area in Short Hills (Mall), Americana Manhassett, and in West Chester County or Greenwich.

I was just in Lisbon. It has very low buying power compared to Philadelphia. Average Portuguese incomes are a fraction of US incomes and the prices of those goods are for the most part normalized globally regardless of income. Lisbon had an Hermes, Marni, Rimowa, etc etc etc.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

It’s time for national high end retailers to start moving westward beyond Rittenhouse Square along Walnut. The Laurel will be pretty transformative when it opens. There’s plenty of brownstone storefronts that could be renovated to suit new boutique retail (*see Bang and Olufsen).

I’m getting tired of the musical chairs along the other half of Walnut. Other urban markets seem to have held their luxury retailers. I don’t see why Rittenhouse can’t at least of a block of upper tier retail at this point (Burberry, Van Cleef etc..)

It will with time, but yes the stretch of Western Walnut / Chestnut could certainly support more retail, especially as high-end residential projects trickle in. I would like to see more furniture and art gallery type stores too, not just national retailers.

And while not super exciting, J. Crew Factory is opening in the old Children's Place at 16th/Chestnut. I'm glad to see a big vacancy go away.

Also, Van Cleef is opening a fancy new store in KoP in the fall, so don't count on them coming to CC. Tysons is getting one too.

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

Same. I don’t think it necessarily has to do with Philly having a “poor population”. Greater Center City is the second most densely populated downtown area in the United States. There’s considerable wealth in Society Hill, Rittenhouse and other parts of the city. Not to mention tourists, suburban commuters and several high end luxury hotels within blocks from one another (Four Seasons, The Ritz, W).

Even though there may be more people who live in poverty in Philly compared to say Boston, there are likely more people here that can afford luxury retail. Boston really isn’t that big of a city relative to Philly and yet it has one or two blocks of uber luxury retail along Newbury St.

I know this issue has been discussed on here extensively, but I still feel like there’s part of the explanation that’s missing. Maybe its partially due to KOP that pulls in high end brands, but Chicago has Oakbrook and DC has Tyson’s Corner. Or maybe Philly’s urban revitalization happened a bit later and we’re still catching up. Hard to say, but it’ll be interesting to see what happens after The Laurel opens. It makes quite the statement.

From a count of high-end retailers and department stores, Philadelphia actually performs about where it should (there is an interesting thread about retail on a competitor site). The difference is that almost all the high-end retail in our region is centered in one spot (KoP), whereas other similar size metros have several centers carrying different high-end brands.

Chicago is a much larger region, so it's no surprise there are multiple locations of each store, and the City Center development in DC is fairly new, and before that it was mostly centered around Tyson's. NYC is in it's own (global) league.

Also, I googled Oakbrook Mall. It's a nice mall, but KoP is on a whole different level, more comparable to the Galleria in Houston. Plus, I have intel on the the lineup of retailers opening in late 2022/2023 and it's impressive. Balenciaga, LV Men's, Van Cleef, Givenchy, potentially Prada... to name a few.

Separately, I was just in Chicago and it appears Oak St. and Rush St. are regaining their momentum after the Covid fallout, a lot of new retailers coming soon and storefronts under renovation. Seems like retailers are interested in expansion again, maybe Center City is next for some!

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

I think all of that is probably true. Also, we’re not as big as Chicago so perhaps having a Gucci store downtown AND at the nearest high end suburban mall isn’t economically feasible. Also, I don’t believe Boston has a suburban mall in the same league as KOP or Oakbrook. Therefore, perhaps luxury retailers there tend to amass more downtown. SF, NYC and DC are socio-economically on a different level so it’s hard to compare them to Philly at the moment. However, the growing number of flashy luxury towers in the city might start attracting the “different type of population” you mentioned.

Edit: Then again, after Google mapping downtown Charleston, which I’d categorize as either a large town or small city, it seems they have a much higher end retail scene than we do (Gucci, LV). The wealthy there essentially just live in old mansions in the historic district. There are no gleaming office or luxury condo towers there whatsoever. I mean, maybe Charlestonian women just like to lounge on their verandas wearing Gucci Kaftans and Fendi sunglasses. Who knows…

I get the frustration / confusion. Even New Orleans has a Saks downtown, and that is rough downtown (great food though). Center City could certainly support another full-line department store (Nordstrom, Bloomingdale's) because they offer a great mix of mid to high-end offerings. Even Saks or Neiman Marcus would do well.