PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[mcgrath618]

From the Lowrise thread:

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

Greystar undertakes $100M redevelopment of Penn graduate housing complex

https://www.bizjournals.com/philadel...Pos=1#cxrecs_s

"Greystar Real Estate Partners is undertaking a $100 million redevelopment of a graduate student dorm built 50 years ago at the University of Pennsylvania."

"Penn entered into a long-term ground lease of Sansom Place East at 3600 Chestnut St. with Greystar, which is an arrangement the university has made with other developers who have undertaken similar redevelopments or new ground-up projects. The project involves overhauling the interior of the building to have 473 units with 588 beds, 12,000 square feet of amenity space that will include a fitness center, co-working space and study rooms. It will also involve renovating an outdoor plaza."

"This is the second project in Philadelphia for Greystar, which is seeking to expand its presence in the city and throughout the region. The South Carolina company is developing a $190 million, 20-story apartment project at 12th and Sansom streets that will have 399 apartments along with 11,000 square feet of commercial space. It is expected to be completed by next summer. It also manages 9,000 multifamily units across the region."

"“We’re making a very concerted effort to grow our footprint in the Philadelphia market and have a large appetite for opportunities in the overall Philadelphia metropolitan area,” said George Hayward, senior director at Greystar. “We firmly believe in the steady fundamentals in the market.”"

[DeltaNerd]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Wait... you're telling me that the Gal--Fashion District still has terrible street-level interaction, despite the renovations? And that the East Market Development across the street is a far better example of holistically healthy urbanism, specifically in Philly?
But PREIT tried so hard! They made the interior look like KOP and then half-assed a facade replacement at ground level! It still totally doesn't suffer from most of the same problems that the original structure faced!

Literally the only improvements that have come as a result of the reconstruction are the AMC/Round 1. Every time I have visited the Fashion Gallery I have only gone to those two locations.
If you gave me $500M, I would use it to raze the building and build something new in its place. This should be a gateway to Chinatown from East Market.

Can't they build on top of the Fashion District by 10th street? It's too late now.

Speaking of Chinatown, I hope they develop that parking lot by Chinatown station, I know the justice center never happened but its time for some developer to build something and even make Chinatown bigger

[summersm343]

Highways around Philadelphia suck. Plain and simple. They need to be cleaned FAR more often, and the state of backlog of repairs, potholes, crumbling medians, center dividers, etc. etc.... is a complete joke.

PennDot has to be as dumb as a bag of bricks. OF COURSE you clean this area far more often... it's the most populace part of the state you jackasses.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Highways around Philadelphia suck. Plain and simple. They need to be cleaned FAR more often, and the state of backlog of repairs, potholes, crumbling medians, center dividers, etc. etc.... is a complete joke.

PennDot has to be as dumb as a bag of bricks. OF COURSE you clean this area far more often... it's the most populace part of the state you jackasses.

NYS is worse than PennDot, if you can imagine. Crossing state lines, the conditions of the highways immediately deteriorate - like flipping a switch.

I think it's just that PennDot hates Philly.

[summersm343]

Fashion District

Is it perfect? No, but it's a HELL of a lot better than what was there. If you're complaining about the Fashion District in it's current state, clearly none of you walked down this stretch of Market Street when the Gallery was there. It was horrifically awful.

Until the rest of the land around "Market East" or "East Market" (whatever you want to call this area) gets developed, there's really no point in even talking about knocking down the Fashion District and creating more developable land until the laundry list of lots around here get developed.... especially since $500M was just dumped into the Fashion District by PREIT and Macerich.... and while PREIT is floundering, you know Macerich - whom is the majority owner of Fashion District now - wants to see their invest succeed.

Let's go over the sheer amount of lots and land within 3 blocks of the Fashion District that could/should/need to be developed.

-13th & Market parking lot
-13th & Arch parking lot
-Entire South Side of 1000 block of Market (yes, including that god awful Robinson Building)
-South side of 900 block of Market from Ludlow to 10th Street
-Giant 8th and Market Disney Hole parking lot
-8th & Ludlow Parking lot
-7th and Market parking garage
-Detention Center at 7th & Market (now that the police headquarters are moving to the old Inky Building, is there any point in keeping this here?)
-Parking lot at 9th & Arch
-Weird little lot at 907 Arch Street
-Parking lot on the 900 block of Arch mid-block
-Parking lot on the south side 1000 block of Arch mid-block
-Parking lot on the North side 1000 block of Arch mid-block
-Greyhound bus terminal
-11th & Cherry to 11th & Appletree lot
-Awful parking garage at 11th & Race
-Weird parking lot between 10th Street, Hutchinson Street and Cherry Street
-Parking lot on 900 block of Cherry mid-block
-Massive weird parking lot between 9th, Arch and Cherry Streets
-Temple's podiatry school and their massive surface parking lot. The podiatry school should be moved up to their Medical campus into a new building and this site sold for redevelopment
-the MASSIVE 8th and Race parking lot (now that Equal Justice Center plans fell apart)
-The massive parking lot surrounding the MetroClub Condos
-Old Philadelphia Police Roundhouse
-The collection of weird properties between 7th, 8th, Cherry and Appletree Streets
-The African American Museum (which should be moved to a better location)
-The large surface lot on the 700 block of Arch
-709 Chestnut Street lot
-8th and Chestnut parking garage
-8th and Chestnut parking lot (part of the Disney Hole)
-L-shaped parking garage at 10th & Ludlow that runs around to Chestnut Street (including that empty lot next door)
-A couple of properties on the 1200 block of Chestnut can be redeveloped
-The PMC Group Building (and the vacant property next door) on the 1300 block of Chestnut
-The weird parking lot on the 1100 block of Sansom for the Target/apartment building
-The small parking lot at 12th & Moravian
-The ENTIRE block spanning 9th to 10th, Chestnut to Sansom (including the garge)
-800 block of Walnut Parking Lot

Is that it? Did I miss anything? That's literally MILLIONS of square feet of developable space.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Redddog

NYS is worse than PennDot, if you can imagine. Crossing state lines, the conditions of the highways immediately deteriorate - like flipping a switch.

I think it's just that PennDot hates Philly.

PennDot hates the most important part of their state? Philadelphia and it's surrounding Metropolitan area is one of the largest and most important in the United States... not to mention the largest and most important BY FAR in the state of PA, the wealthiest part of PA, that produces the most GDP for the state and the most tax dollars....

It'd be one thing too if it were just the highways through Philadelphia, but it's not.
309 is a mess.
202 is a mess.
Schuylkill Expressway is a mess an runs through the LITERAL wealthiest part of the state (Main Line)
476 is a mess from Conshy down to I-95
The turnpike is usually fine but gets noticeably less taken care of as you pass from KOP to the Delaware River.

.... that's not to mention the shit show that is I-95 from start to finish through Pennsylvania.

...of course, 422 is fine. Because of course it is... but even 422 gets REALLY shitty going through Pottstown and Reading.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Fashion District

Is it perfect? No, but it's a HELL of a lot better than what was there. If you're complaining about the Fashion District in it's current state, clearly none of you walked down this stretch of Market Street when the Gallery was there. It was horrifically awful.

Until the rest of the land around "Market East" or "East Market" (whatever you want to call this area) gets developed, there's really no point in even talking about knocking down the Fashion District and creating more developable land until the laundry list of lots around here get developed.... especially since $500M was just dumped into the Fashion District by PREIT and Macerich.... and while PREIT is floundering, you know Macerich - whom is the majority owner of Fashion District now - wants to see their invest succeed.

Let's go over the sheer amount of lots and land within 3 blocks of the Fashion District that could/should/need to be developed.

-13th & Market parking lot
-13th & Arch parking lot
-Entire South Side of 1000 block of Market (yes, including that god awful Robinson Building)
-South side of 900 block of Market from Ludlow to 10th Street
-Giant 8th and Market Disney Hole parking lot
-8th & Ludlow Parking lot
-7th and Market parking garage
-Detention Center at 7th & Market (now that the police headquarters are moving to the old Inky Building, is there any point in keeping this here?)
-Parking lot at 9th & Arch
-Weird little lot at 907 Arch Street
-Parking lot on the 900 block of Arch mid-block
-Parking lot on the south side 1000 block of Arch mid-block
-Parking lot on the North side 1000 block of Arch mid-block
-Greyhound bus terminal
-11th & Cherry to 11th & Appletree lot
-Awful parking garage at 11th & Race
-Weird parking lot between 10th Street, Hutchinson Street and Cherry Street
-Parking lot on 900 block of Cherry mid-block
-Massive weird parking lot between 9th, Arch and Cherry Streets
-Temple's podiatry school and their massive surface parking lot. The podiatry school should be moved up to their Medical campus into a new building and this site sold for redevelopment
-the MASSIVE 8th and Race parking lot (now that Equal Justice Center plans fell apart)
-The massive parking lot surrounding the MetroClub Condos
-Old Philadelphia Police Roundhouse
-The collection of weird properties between 7th, 8th, Cherry and Appletree Streets
-The African American Museum (which should be moved to a better location)
-The large surface lot on the 700 block of Arch
-709 Chestnut Street lot
-8th and Chestnut parking garage
-8th and Chestnut parking lot (part of the Disney Hole)
-L-shaped parking garage at 10th & Ludlow that runs around to Chestnut Street (including that empty lot next door)
-A couple of properties on the 1200 block of Chestnut can be redeveloped
-The PMC Group Building (and the vacant property next door) on the 1300 block of Chestnut
-The weird parking lot on the 1100 block of Sansom for the Target/apartment building
-The small parking lot at 12th & Moravian
-The ENTIRE block spanning 9th to 10th, Chestnut to Sansom (including the garge)
-800 block of Walnut Parking Lot

Is that it? Did I miss anything? That's literally MILLIONS of square feet of developable space.

To argue that the FD should remain because of the recent investment is sunk cost fallacy. The fact is that it isn't doing nearly as well as they'd hoped. It isn't dead, like the Granite Run Mall was, but for a mall plop dead in Center City it might as well be considering the underwhelming foot traffic. You can only put so much lipstick on a pig.
I actually think that razing the FD and replacing it with a development not unlike National's East Market would BE the impetus for the rest of East Market Street to finally see investment. I think there's a reason that National has shifted their focus to Spring Garden rather than their remaining properties on Market, and I think that reason has something to do with the hulking, disgusting abomination of a dying mall across the street. They're biding their time to see how it turns out in the long run.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Highways around Philadelphia suck. Plain and simple. They need to be cleaned FAR more often, and the state of backlog of repairs, potholes, crumbling medians, center dividers, etc. etc.... is a complete joke.

PennDot has to be as dumb as a bag of bricks. OF COURSE you clean this area far more often... it's the most populace part of the state you jackasses.

The level of ignorance in that post is jaw dropping. If you look at roads in the area that are pothole ridden, most are likely to be city streets, not state roads. PennDOT has a pretty aggressive repaving schedule every year and they have a big package out for bid for Philly as we speak that will cover Market st, Walnut, lancaster ave, City Ave, Washington Ave and more- I think its a $10m bid. You can look at the District 6 site and see the major projects underway including I95 rebuild which is costing several billion dollars. PennDOT is also mostly funding the Penns landing cap project and kicks in money for all kinds of trail expansion projects in the city and region. Philadelphia probably gets more money than any other county- and when you consider it's size vs other counties we most likely get the most per capita.

Spend 10 minutes doing some research on their site and you might make fewer sweeping, poorly informed statements.

https://www.penndot.pa.gov/RegionalO...x#.ViZiCNKrSUk

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by summersm343

PennDot hates the most important part of their state? Philadelphia and it's surrounding Metropolitan area is one of the largest and most important in the United States... not to mention the largest and most important BY FAR in the state of PA, the wealthiest part of PA, that produces the most GDP for the state and the most tax dollars....

It'd be one thing too if it were just the highways through Philadelphia, but it's not.
309 is a mess.
202 is a mess.
Schuylkill Expressway is a mess an runs through the LITERAL wealthiest part of the state (Main Line)
476 is a mess from Conshy down to I-95
The turnpike is usually fine but gets noticeably less taken care of as you pass from KOP to the Delaware River.

.... that's not to mention the shit show that is I-95 from start to finish through Pennsylvania.

...of course, 422 is fine. Because of course it is... but even 422 gets REALLY shitty going through Pottstown and Reading.

309 is not a mess. What are you talking about? It was rebuilt within the last 15-20 years.

turnpike is NOT funded by PennDOT. No one listens to what I say on here apparently. Toll roads generate their own maintenance revenue- they are not dependent on general taxpayer dollars.

There is an active project to repave and rebuild 11 miles of I-95 through delaware county and the section south of Chester has already been repaved. Its a $60m+ project. And then the Philly section north of I676 has been under construction for expansion and improvement for like the last 7 years. Its probably the most expensive highway project in the entire state.

BTW, do you have data on what % of PennDOT's budget goes to District 6?

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

The off ramp from 676 onto 76 E (toward University City) is perhaps the most disgusting 100 yards of highway anywhere I've ever seen. You can't with a straight face say the highways get cleaned periodically and look at the mounds of years of road salt and sand built up along the cement barriers of that exit and say anything other than it hasn't been cleaned in 5 years.

At this point you couldn't sweep it. You need a backhoe to come remove the debris.

Put in a complaint. When I've done that it usually works. Or you can keep posting about it here and telling us how every other state has great roads and clean shoulders.

Has anyone here ever driven from the BF bridge to the AC expressway? Is anyone impressed with the condition of 676 and 42 in NJ? I do not see these panacea conditions on other highways UNLESS they are tolled.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by cardeza

The level of ignorance in that post is jaw dropping. If you look at roads in the area that are pothole ridden, most are likely to be city streets, not state roads. PennDOT has a pretty aggressive repaving schedule every year and they have a big package out for bid for Philly as we speak that will cover Market st, Walnut, lancaster ave, City Ave, Washington Ave and more- I think its a $10m bid. You can look at the District 6 site and see the major projects underway including I95 rebuild which is costing several billion dollars. PennDOT is also mostly funding the Penns landing cap project and kicks in money for all kinds of trail expansion projects in the city and region. Philadelphia probably gets more money than any other county- and when you consider it's size vs other counties we most likely get the most per capita.

Spend 10 minutes doing some research on their site and you might make fewer sweeping, poorly informed statements.

https://www.penndot.pa.gov/RegionalO...x#.ViZiCNKrSUk

I'm not sure how you could defend PennDot and it's (lack of) highway upkeep in this region and Pennsylvania as a whole.... but leave it to Cardeza to do so.

This proves you don't travel. Have you been to any other state? Literally any other one?

I've seen other highways in other states in some state of disrepair, but none as bad as Philadelphia and none EVEN CLOSE to the level of trash on the shoulders as Philadelphia area.

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by cardeza

BTW, do you have data on what % of PennDOT's budget goes to District 6?

Roommate was on the 476 widening job, and said that a huge chunk of PennDOT's budget goes to D6. In fact, I think the most of any District.

I too disagree with the notion that PennDOT is purposely screwing over Philadelphia's highways. In fact, I think the exact opposite is true. They pretty much refuse to contribute to SEPTA improvement projects unless they include a park and ride component (see: Norristown, Ardmore, Paoli, Levittown, Wawa). They clearly recognize the importance of these roads (however mistaken they are about the efficacy of park and ride facilities).

Originally Posted by summersm343

I'm not sure how you could defend PennDot and it's (lack of) highway upkeep in this region and Pennsylvania as a whole.... but leave it to Cardeza to do so.

This proves you don't travel. Have you been to any other state? Literally any other one?

I've seen other highways in other states in some state of disrepair, but none as bad as Philadelphia and none EVEN CLOSE to the level of trash on the shoulders as Philadelphia area.

I don't think he is saying that PennDOT is perfect... neither am I for that matter. But he's absolutely right that there are plenty of roads elsewhere that are in just as bad a state. It's reflective of a nation that, for about forty years, hasn't adequately funded infrastructure maintenance and improvement. This goes for both road and rail.
The one that comes to mind instantly for me is the Garden State Parkway in North Jersey. It's abysmal. Most of the highways around NYC are the same way.
Moving out to another region, Chicago is much worse. I once saw an entire engine block on Lake Shore Drive that stayed there for about a month.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by cardeza

309 is not a mess. What are you talking about? It was rebuilt within the last 15-20 years.

turnpike is NOT funded by PennDOT. No one listens to what I say on here apparently. Toll roads generate their own maintenance revenue- they are not dependent on general taxpayer dollars.

There is an active project to repave and rebuild 11 miles of I-95 through delaware county and the section south of Chester has already been repaved. Its a $60m+ project. And then the Philly section north of I676 has been under construction for expansion and improvement for like the last 7 years. Its probably the most expensive highway project in the entire state.

BTW, do you have data on what % of PennDOT's budget goes to District 6?

Ohhhh... so the most well maintained highway in the Philadelphia Region (The PA Turnpike) is not maintained by PennDot? It all makes sense now!

I drive 309 quite regularly. When's the last time you were on 309? It's a complete disgrace and littered with trash and debris in both directions.

Quality job PennDot
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1793...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1689...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1604...7i16384!8i8192

^^These are from 2019, but many spots along 309 are in the same state, and some spots even worse now.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by cardeza

You can look at the District 6 site and see the major projects underway including I95 rebuild which is costing several billion dollars.https://www.penndot.pa.gov/RegionalO...x#.ViZiCNKrSUk

This is what pisses me off more than anything.

Billions of dollars on the rebuild project and it looks like sh*t already because it's already not being maintained. The new lanes that opened between Allegheny and Girard are already strewn with spare parts and trash. The shoulder just beyond Girard (before Callowhill) looks like a garbage dump. The onramp to 95 from Richmond Street by the Port Richmond shopping center is a hellhole.

It's like building a brand new house and not cutting the grass or vacuuming. I don't care if it's brand new. If it looks like crap who cares.

I do more than just complain you know. Last week I parked my car on Delaware Avenue (is that a state road? that PennDot "maintains") and picked up 4 50 gallon bags of trash that were on empty lots along the roadside. Barely made a dent. Many mornings before work I go on a walk a take a trash bag with me. I've open tickets for 311 with the city for short dumps under 95 and they get closed as "resolved" meanwhile the dumps are still there.

How does one open a ticket with PennDot? I'll be glad to. I'll film the entire shoulder of the highway from Richmond Street north to the Bucks County line and send it to them.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

The one that comes to mind instantly for me is the Garden State Parkway in North Jersey. It's abysmal. Most of the highways around NYC are the same way.
Moving out to another region, Chicago is much worse. I once saw an entire engine block on Lake Shore Drive that stayed there for about a month.

Lol whuut? The GSP is spotless. The turnpike is spotless. Like lick it clean spotless.

All of the highways through Staten Island and Brooklyn are spotless, which is shocking considering how much travel they receive. Many of these highways you can't even see an errant piece of gravel let alone car bumpers strewn all over the place.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

I don't think he is saying that PennDOT is perfect... neither am I for that matter. But he's absolutely right that there are plenty of roads elsewhere that are in just as bad a state. It's reflective of a nation that, for about forty years, hasn't adequately funded infrastructure maintenance and improvement. This goes for both road and rail.
The one that comes to mind instantly for me is the Garden State Parkway in North Jersey. It's abysmal. Most of the highways around NYC are the same way.
Moving out to another region, Chicago is much worse. I once saw an entire engine block on Lake Shore Drive that stayed there for about a month.

I didn't drive when in Chicago, so can't speak to that...

I've been all over NYC area highways, and I've never seen it as bad as highways around Philly. It's either cleaner, or close to as dirty, but MOSTLY cleaner. The fact that NYC which is over 5 times larger than Philly, and has a greater metropolitan region over 3 times larger and yet still manages to have cleaner highways is a joke.

Highways are cleaner around Boston, around DC, around LA, around San Francisco, around Miami... they're even cleaner around Baltimore despite some highways being at a similar level of disrepair as Philly.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

This is what pisses me off more than anything.

Billions of dollars on the rebuild project and it looks like sh*t already because it's already not being maintained. The new lanes that opened between Allegheny and Girard are already strewn with spare parts and trash. The shoulder just beyond Girard (before Callowhill) looks like a garbage dump. The onramp to 95 from Richmond Street by the Port Richmond shopping center is a hellhole.

It's like building a brand new house and not cutting the grass or vacuuming. I don't care if it's brand new. If it looks like crap who cares.

I do more than just complain you know. Last week I parked my car on Delaware Avenue (is that a state road? that PennDot "maintains") and picked up 4 50 gallon bags of trash that were on empty lots along the roadside. Barely made a dent. Many mornings before work I go on a walk a take a trash bag with me. I've open tickets for 311 with the city for short dumps under 95 and they get closed as "resolved" meanwhile the dumps are still there.

How does one open a ticket with PennDot? I'll be glad to. I'll film the entire shoulder of the highway from Richmond Street north to the Bucks County line and send it to them.

Yep. 100% agree. I noticed that too. Even the BRAND NEW sections of I-95 are dirty and trash-strewn and not being maintained.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9673...7i16384!8i8192

[mcgrath618]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Lol whuut? The GSP is spotless. The turnpike is spotless. Like lick it clean spotless.

All of the highways through Staten Island and Brooklyn are spotless, which is shocking considering how much travel they receive. Many of these highways you can't even see an errant piece of gravel let alone car bumpers strewn all over the place.

I haven't done that GSP drive in awhile (and probably will never do it again for unrelated reasons). I CAN confirm that the last time I took the GWB and I-95 through NYC in September, it was as bad as I've ever seen any highway. And I had plenty of time to look at it on the way back, since I wasn't really moving anywhere.

Originally Posted by summersm343

I didn't drive when in Chicago, so can't speak to that...

I've been all over NYC area highways, and I've never seen it as bad as highways around Philly. It's either cleaner, or close to as dirty, but MOSTLY cleaner. The fact that NYC which is over 5 times larger than Philly, and has a greater metropolitan region over 3 times larger and yet still manages to have cleaner highways is a joke.

Highways are cleaner around Boston, around DC, around LA, around San Francisco, around Miami... they're even cleaner around Baltimore despite some highways being at a similar level of disrepair as Philly.

I-83, especially in downtown Baltimore, is appalling. I was on a construction site next to it last year and saw it (and used it!) every day.

All of the Chicagoland highways are trashed. It's a shame, as a lot of them are well built.

I'm beginning to see a theme with the other cities you mentioned though... they all are in states that dedicate much more money per % of annual total budget to highway/infrastructure than PA. Someone mentioned the gas tax earlier. The gas tax doesn't go towards infrastructure improvements in this state. IIRC it is specifically allotted for the State Police to operate in towns without a local police force.
I think a lot of your ire here could be better directed towards idiots at Harrisburg, and not towards PennDOT.

By the way, I really don't get your complaints about the turnpike. I switched between 276 and 95 up to New Hope last Christmas when I was both home and in my apartment in the city. 276 is perfectly fine east of KOP. For that matter, I never had issue with the new 295. The only places in the Philly area that I see what you guys are talking about are 76 between 476 and the Walt Whitman, and 95 between 476 and where 295 splits off.

[PHLJD13]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

Would it be wrong of me to say I feel like the new Gallery is on par with the WTC Mall?

Not "wrong", but rather inaccurate. The Fashion District is 90% outlets with lower-quality, made-for-outlet merchandise crammed on plastic hangers and piled in bargain bins. Express, Armani Exchange, Eddie Bauer, etc. are mid-range at best. Their outlet brands in the Fashion District are on par with Old Navy. Which is . . . fine.

But a completely different target demographic than the mall in the Oculus, which has elevated brands like Aesop, Reiss, Apple, and Mont Blanc.

[700 Level]

I love it in Philly. Great neighborhoods, incredible vibe, huge additional potential. We also have some of the best suburban towns you will find anywhere. But look, if you travel the country, I don’t know how anyone could argue that we are not at the bottom of the pile in terms of maintenance and litter. It’s flat out embarrassing.

One of my current “favorites” is connecting from the Platt onto the Schuylkill. Yes, the very road visitors are most likely to be on when they arrive at the airport. Welcome!