CHICAGO: ORD & MDW discussion

[F1 Tommy]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

^ Damn.

UA not playing around at ORD.

AA gonna need to answer this if they wanna stay co-hubbers.

I think the city needs to be very careful. If they show to much favoritism towards United they will force the second biggest customer at ORD to downsize. They will only hurt Chicago competition, unless you like even higher airline fares!!

United on the other hand would love that. ORD is the only major hub left to have 2 legacy airlines with large hubs. It needs to stay that way.

[OrdoSeclorum]

Originally Posted by F1 Tommy

I think the city needs to be very careful. If they show to much favoritism towards United they will force the second biggest customer at ORD to downsize. They will only hurt Chicago competition, unless you like even higher airline fares!!

United on the other hand would love that. ORD is the only major hub left to have 2 legacy airlines with large hubs. It needs to stay that way.

I am in no way an Airline Industry Analyst. But I assume that AA will want to maintain a major presence at ORD so they can benefit from the new Global Terminal. That would boost their international flight business measurably and a big part of why their floundering is that they're behind Delta and United in the profitable international market.

[Tom In Chicago]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

^ Damn.

UA not playing around at ORD.

AA gonna need to answer this if they wanna stay co-hubbers.

Yeah. . . I need UA/AA to have a strong presence at O'Hare so I can take advantage of sub $200 flights to L.A. and $150 flights to New York City. . .

. . .

[twister244]

Originally Posted by F1 Tommy

I think the city needs to be very careful. If they show to much favoritism towards United they will force the second biggest customer at ORD to downsize. They will only hurt Chicago competition, unless you like even higher airline fares!!

United on the other hand would love that. ORD is the only major hub left to have 2 legacy airlines with large hubs. It needs to stay that way.

The city is simply enforcing a use-it or lose-it policy with their gates. The whole reason AA lost gates in the first place is because they didn't invest into ORD post-Covid.

The best example of this was when British Airways was moved from Terminal 5 to Terminal 3 last year. I'm not an insider, but it was pretty obvious they were doing that to shore up their Terminal 3 numbers without adding any new widebody year-round flights there. Fact of the matter is AA got caught with their pants down this past year and are now scrambling to shore up their real estate.

I agree - Competition is great, but it means AA needs to compete. Right now, UA has the momentum on their side with more international routes, more alliance members, etc. Not to mention every week that goes by, more of their planes have StarLink free WiFi which is a complete game changer for anyone who has experienced it first hand.

If AA wanted to really shore up some flyers, they should be going after Spirit customers big time right now because they have FOUR preferential gates over in Terminal 3 and we all know that's going bye bye sooner than later given Spirits current problems.

[F1 Tommy]

Originally Posted by OrdoSeclorum

I am in no way an Airline Industry Analyst. But I assume that AA will want to maintain a major presence at ORD so they can benefit from the new Global Terminal. That would boost their international flight business measurably and a big part of why their floundering is that they're behind Delta and United in the profitable international market.

Yes they will keep a large presence in Chicago, but if they pull back to much UA will control a lot of direct flights and pricing. You can always fly thru DTW/MSP/ATL on Delta or DFW/CLT on AA, but UA will start to own most of the nonstops in Chicago. Southwest is maxed out at MDW also.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by twister244

Fact of the matter is AA got caught with their pants down this past year and are now scrambling to shore up their real estate.

Exactly.

AA was like, "funneling people through our fortress hubs in Dallas and Charlotte is way more profitable for us than going head to head with UA at ORD, so let's shift a crapload of traffic that way.

Then when ORD came back with "yo AA, you guys aren't using your gates enough, so we're reallocating them", AA cried foul like a spoiled child.

Fucking compete AA.

Yes, profits will be slimmer at a competitive dual-hub than one of your monopolistic fortress hubs where you run the whole show, but you slept on your lone midwest hub, and now UA is starting to eat your lunch there, and threatening to blow a gigantic hole in your national network.

Fight back.

[F1 Tommy]

Anyway, what ORD needs ASAP is for the FAA to shore up the tower staffing(was a major issue before the shutdown)and figure out the best way to move traffic around the airfield. I have been watching every day unfortunately, and they seem top be experimenting with several configurations, but staffing have eaten into how well they work. If you have flown into ORD lately you had to notice how long it took you to get from the runway to the gate during peak periods. It is getting absurd!!!

[N830MH]

Originally Posted by F1 Tommy

Anyway, what ORD needs ASAP is for the FAA to shore up the tower staffing(was a major issue before the shutdown)and figure out the best way to move traffic around the airfield. I have been watching every day unfortunately, and they seem top be experimenting with several configurations, but staffing have eaten into how well they work. If you have flown into ORD lately you had to notice how long it took you to get from the runway to the gate during peak periods. It is getting absurd!!!

Yeah, I am very aware of that. I know what's going on out there. US Government still shutdown. Hopefully they will reopen again soon enough though. They haven't received a paycheck for every week. I am sure people who work for airports are very aware of that.

[F1 Tommy]

Originally Posted by N830MH

Yeah, I am very aware of that. I know what's going on out there. US Government still shutdown. Hopefully they will reopen again soon enough though. They haven't received a paycheck for every week. I am sure people who work for airports are very aware of that.

ORD ATC issues started way before the shutdown.

[Kngkyle]

Originally Posted by F1 Tommy

Anyway, what ORD needs ASAP is for the FAA to shore up the tower staffing(was a major issue before the shutdown)and figure out the best way to move traffic around the airfield. I have been watching every day unfortunately, and they seem top be experimenting with several configurations, but staffing have eaten into how well they work. If you have flown into ORD lately you had to notice how long it took you to get from the runway to the gate during peak periods. It is getting absurd!!!

They aren't experimenting with different configurations.. they are working around construction closures. It's not just the terminals being worked on but also some of the busiest taxiways are being repaved incrementally, with different sections closed every couple of weeks. That requires frequent pattern changes in order to work around the closures.

Combine this with massively increased schedules from AA and UA compared to last year and you end up with a bit of a mess at peak times. Throw in some weather delays and it can get backed up quickly. It also doesn't help that most airlines significantly pad their schedules now, so when operations run smooth a flight can land 30 minutes to an hour early.... before their gate is available... requiring ATC to send them on a tour of the airfield or park at the de-icing pad.

I don't think ORD has had any significant ATC delays (yet).

[F1 Tommy]

Originally Posted by Kngkyle

They aren't experimenting with different configurations.. they are working around construction closures. It's not just the terminals being worked on but also some of the busiest taxiways are being repaved incrementally, with different sections closed every couple of weeks. That requires frequent pattern changes in order to work around the closures.

Combine this with massively increased schedules from AA and UA compared to last year and you end up with a bit of a mess at peak times. Throw in some weather delays and it can get backed up quickly. It also doesn't help that most airlines significantly pad their schedules now, so when operations run smooth a flight can land 30 minutes to an hour early.... before their gate is available... requiring ATC to send them on a tour of the airfield or park at the de-icing pad.

I don't think ORD has had any significant ATC delays (yet).

In the air ATC, but on the ground they leave them at the CDF or in the box well after the gates open. What do you consider "significant". The CDF is not controlled by ATC ground, although the taxiways around it are. Also a few weeks ago they landed almost the entire 0700-0900 arrival banks on the north runway, which caused 45+minute taxies to the gate. And the weather was clear and sunny with light winds. Maybe staffing isssues on that day??

[F1 Tommy]

Looks like Arajet has started service from ORD using 737 max aircraft to Punta Cana (PUJ).

[twister244]

Very interesting Crains article coming out this morning.... Looks like the city is suddenly going to try to push to get S2 off the ground next year before OGT begins to mitigate the loss of gate space. Sounds like the right approach given how bad traffic has become on the airfield, and how fiercely UA/AA are vying for gate space.

As a result, the city says “it has developed a scenario which assumes the construction of the Satellite 2 Concourse concurrently with the construction of Satellite 1 Concourse and prior to OGT construction. Under this scenario, construction of the Satellite 2 Concourse is currently expected to commence in 2026 with an anticipated phased opening during 2029 and construction of the OGT would begin in 2029 and be complete in 2033.”

But if the airlines push back on this scenario, the article hints OGT would have to be built in phases.....

https://www.chicagobusiness.com/airl...1202&utm_term=

[k1052]

Originally Posted by twister244

Very interesting Crains article coming out this morning.... Looks like the city is suddenly going to try to push to get S2 off the ground next year before OGT begins to mitigate the loss of gate space. Sounds like the right approach given how bad traffic has become on the airfield, and how fiercely UA/AA are vying for gate space.



But if the airlines push back on this scenario, the article hints OGT would have to be built in phases.....

https://www.chicagobusiness.com/airl...1202&utm_term=

Kinda got the impression the city was interested in this a while ago. It's quite evident there is already insufficient gate space since airlines are back suing the city over reallocations. Winter weather cluster also making it clear they need more and sooner than the current plan provides.

[moorhosj1]

Originally Posted by twister244

Sounds like the right approach given how bad traffic has become on the airfield, and how fiercely UA/AA are vying for gate space.

I seem to remember 3 years ago when Crain's was running articles about how O'Hare was in free-fall and the region was doomed. It's funny to watch how these things play out in the long run.

[nomarandlee]

Do I have it right that under the city's wish list is that the new T2 timeline would effectively stay the same, but they would build Satellite 2 soon so that there would not be a dearth of gates while T2 is being built?

[twister244]

Originally Posted by nomarandlee

Do I have it right that under the city's wish list is that the new T2 timeline would effectively stay the same, but they would build Satellite 2 soon so that there would not be a dearth of gates while T2 is being built?

That does kinda seem to be the desire here. There also seems to be a push to get the Central Detention Basin filled in and pave the final taxiway pattern that would sit on the West side of S2. Maybe that was part of the plan, but having that in place sooner will make it that much easier to construct S2 and get it operating.

[F1 Tommy]

So no comments about G8 and G10 at ORD. AA bought both from Spirit for 30 million. They beat out UA by bidding on several gates at several airports in the Spirit system. The bankruptcy judge went with the highest bidder for all the assets available at several airports. I think Spirit will be gone in 2026.

[F1 Tommy]

Interesting photo and some information.

USAF C-54 serial number 43-17192 was built at the Douglas Aircraft Company plant in Chicago (Orchard Place/Douglas Field), which is the site of the present-day O'Hare International Airport.

During World War II, the Douglas Aircraft Company manufactured the C-54 Skymaster at two primary locations:

Santa Monica, California: 515 units were produced here.
Chicago, Illinois (Orchard Place/Douglas Field): 655 units were produced here.

They built more C54's in Chicago than at the main Douglas plant in California.

They also stored many aircraft for the Smithsonian and Air Force museum at ORD including the Enola Gay B29 at the old Douglas aircraft factory. It was torn down in the 1970's.

The reason given for not producing aircraft at ORD was the weather. Probably more attributed to stupid politician's, as St Louis has a huge fighter plant, and they have almost the same weather.




https://airlinersgallery.smugmug.com/keyword/18392

[twister244]

According to Urbanize - A tower crane permit is in!

It'll be fun to watch new terminal space go up next year on the airfield.