The Canadian Electric Vehicle thread

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Given the amount of EVs you see on the road in Vancouver this number seemed dubious to me so I looked into it, astoundingly it is true.

The story here is Ontario, and it's incredibly low EV adoption.

BC has the highest adoption of EVs at 26% of new sales, followed by Quebec at 23%, what is the shocker is Ontario at a paltry 9%.

This allows Canada's second and third most populous provinces to account for 40% and 26% of all EV sales respectively, totaling 66% of all EVs sold in Canada while representing only 36% of its population.

Get your shit together ROC.

Maybe because Doug Ford got rid of the handouts, I mean rebates.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Maybe because Doug Ford got rid of the handouts, I mean rebates.

This is the big reason.

EVs are cost competitive with ICEs in QC and BC. They still have a decent premium, even on lifetime costs, in Ontario. Automakers also direct their stock to regions with greater subsidies as it's easier to move product in those areas at a higher margin.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Maybe because Doug Ford got rid of the handouts, I mean rebates.

This is the big reason.

EVs are cost competitive with ICEs in QC and BC. They still have a decent premium, even on lifetime costs, in Ontario.

The US market has a 7% EV adoption rate on new sales right now for comparison - so Ontario is still "above average" so to speak - QC and BC are just very high.

[theman23]

IIRC, Ontario had the most generous BEV incentive prior to DoFo and BEV uptake was amongst the highest in Canada until it was taken away. A lot of Model S owners got $14k off their purchase through the program.

I'd agree with the policy change. BC having 26% BEV market share in 2023 vs Ontario having 9% is a pretty meaningless accomplishment. BEVs are on their way anyways due to mandates and BEV's approaching cost parity, and these handouts are disproportionately utilized by the wealthiest Canadians. Public money should be focused on building charging infrastructure.

[ssiguy]

The reason why EVs are more popular in Quebec and BC are threefold:

1} They have the most expensive gas in the country.
2} They add 50% to the Ottawa welfare cheque to buy them.
3} They {with Manitoba} have the cheapest Hydro rates in the country.

BC also benefits from not having to deal with EVs inferior performance in extreme cold.

As far as EVs now being cost competitive, that is far from the case for most people even with the welfare cheques. The reality is that EVs will NEVER come down to the price of ICE as long as the EV welfare cheques keep rolling in. EV makers will always charge a higher price even if one day they become cheaper to make than ICE because they will build-in the subsidy into their base MSRP.

This EV rebate really infuriates me. EVs are still very much the domain of the well off and Ottawa/QC/Vic are basically giving out free money to the people who least need which I guess encapsulates Trudeau's elitist attitudes to a tee. It's also very hypocritical as Trudeau claims he does this to improve the environment when EVs create more damage to the environment than ICE vehicles in their production and there is no such thing as a "clean car". The cleanest way for the masses to travel is via transit and this is the same individual who cut the transit tax credit.

Even if he and his wealthy environmental friends demand help to switch over to zero-emissions, the very least they should do is demand a certain percentage of the vehicle use Canadian content. As it stands right now, Trudeau is effectively writing Musk a $5000 personal cheque and with Tesla, having no footprint in Canada, Ottawa makes it clear that there is no reason why he should.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by theman23

IIRC, Ontario had the most generous BEV incentive prior to DoFo and BEV uptake was amongst the highest in Canada until it was taken away. A lot of Model S owners got $14k off their purchase through the program.

I'd agree with the policy change. BC having 26% BEV market share in 2023 vs Ontario having 9% is a pretty meaningless accomplishment. BEVs are on their way anyways due to mandates and BEV's approaching cost parity, and these handouts are disproportionately utilized by the wealthiest Canadians. Public money should be focused on building charging infrastructure.

So when you throw government money behind buying a selected product people will buy it. Who knew!

[rdaner]

Great that overall sales of EVs is growing but also strange that Ontario lags. I do have one question. Due to Canada's and Ontario's higher than average public transit use compared to NA cities I wonder if the lower EV adoption rate is tempered somewhat?

[Architype]

Originally Posted by rdaner

Great that overall sales of EVs is growing but also strange that Ontario lags. I do have one question. Due to Canada's and Ontario's higher than average public transit use compared to NA cities I wonder if the lower EV adoption rate is tempered somewhat?

I would say it would make some difference, although people who care about the environment might both use transit and drive an EV.

Here's some fun statistics, but just for overall motor vehicles; what's the story with Gibraltar? North Korea, winning last place!

Motor vehicles per 1,000 people:

Gibraltar - 1,444
Liechtenstein - 1,193
United States - 908
Canada - 790
Australia - 782
France - 668
Germany - 628
United Kingdom - 600
Brazil - 445
Russia - 395
Mexico - 391
Israel - 390
Taiwan - 365
China - 221
Iran - 183
India - 59
North Korea - 1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...les_per_capita

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by theman23

BC having 26% BEV market share in 2023 vs Ontario having 9% is a pretty meaningless accomplishment. BEVs are on their way anyways due to mandates and BEV's approaching cost parity, and these handouts are disproportionately utilized by the wealthiest Canadians. Public money should be focused on building charging infrastructure.

In BC the wealthiest Canadians aren't eligible for a provincial EV rebate - the payments are tied to household income. And the wealthiest Canadians are more likely to be buying Lucids, or Rivians, or the more expensive Teslas, none of which are eligible vehicles for a federal incentive either.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Changing City

In BC the wealthiest Canadians aren't eligible for a provincial EV rebate - the payments are tied to household income. And the wealthiest Canadians are more likely to be buying Lucids, or Rivians, or the more expensive Teslas, none of which are eligible vehicles for a federal incentive either.

Yeah that's why the whole "subsidies for the rich" trope has never made much sense. Luxury EVs are above the subsidy price cap.

In reality, it's always frustrating that new technologies that increase efficiency and allow one to save energy and money can often only be enjoyed by those who need the savings the least. Also happens with things like solar panels, battery storage systems (to save on off-peak pricing) etc. They all require upfront investment that lower income people can't always afford. Yet when there are subsidies that bring these new technologies into the reach of people with less money, naysayers call it handouts for the rich.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Yeah that's why the whole "subsidies for the rich" trope has never made much sense. Luxury EVs are above the subsidy price cap.

In reality, it's always frustrating that new technologies that increase efficiency and allow one to save energy and money can often only be enjoyed by those who need the savings the least. Also happens with things like solar panels, battery storage systems (to save on off-peak pricing) etc. They all require upfront investment that lower income people can't always afford. Yet when there are subsidies that bring these new technologies into the reach of people with less money, naysayers call it handouts for the rich.

The reality is that it is mostly "the rich" who buy new cars. That's why average new car price is $67k now. So if we want adoption and want the secondary market to have EVs, we need to sway the rich to buy EVs. This can be done with carrots (rebates) or sticks (carbon taxes, mandates, etc) or both.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

It's also very hypocritical as Trudeau claims he does this to improve the environment when EVs create more damage to the environment than ICE vehicles in their production....

You don't get to make a statement without substantiating it.

Evidence please. And from credible sources.

And if you're talking GHGs, why should we only care about the manufacturing phase and not lifetime emissions?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

The US market has a 7% EV adoption rate on new sales right now ....

The Inflation Reduction Act is due to change that substantially in the US. Both with consumer subsidies and massive industrial incentives. Fully expect half of all cars sold to EVs by 2030.

North America is just a harder nut to crack given that preferences are for larger vehicles which means larger batteries and higher prices.

[Innsertnamehere]

Americans not only want larger cars but higher ranges as well. Most Americans (and even I slot in this camp) want 300 mile range EVs, which are pricey.

The consumer incentives are already there south of the border. It is indeed production capacity, but the US is a market where a single EV can go the furthest in emissions reductions as well as Americans drive so much. A Chinese EV is cheap to get out, but the average Chinese driver probably isn’t clocking anywhere close to the mileage the average American is going to work and back.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Americans not only want larger cars but higher ranges as well. Most Americans (and even I slot in this camp) want 300 mile range EVs, which are pricey.

The consumer incentives are already there south of the border. It is indeed production capacity, but the US is a market where a single EV can go the furthest in emissions reductions as well as Americans drive so much. A Chinese EV is cheap to get out, but the average Chinese driver probably isn’t clocking anywhere close to the mileage the average American is going to work and back.

The Chinese driver also doesn't expect to drive hundreds of miles on roadtrips. They have the world's largest high speed rail network for intercity trips.

But yes, North American tastes so pose massive challenges to adoption. I just wish we'd be differentiated from the American market. For years, smaller vehicles got more sales in Canada. Now OEMs force the same choices on us. Doesn't make sense. Canada has higher gas prices (even before the carbon tax) and much higher transit usage. That's an environment where smaller vehicles would sell slightly better. We aren't even talking small Honda E size. The ID3 isn't that small.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rdaner

Great that overall sales of EVs is growing but also strange that Ontario lags. I do have one question. Due to Canada's and Ontario's higher than average public transit use compared to NA cities I wonder if the lower EV adoption rate is tempered somewhat?

I don't think it compensates. BC has higher public transit usage than Ontario, and Quebec isn't really that far behind.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You don't get to make a statement without substantiating it.

Evidence please. And from credible sources.

And if you're talking GHGs, why should we only care about the manufacturing phase and not lifetime emissions?

It's a weird claim unless you only care about degradation from mining. Which frankly a lot of activists do for other mining activities.

Depending on the assumptions and the source of electricity a BEV has 50% to 100% of the emissions of an ICE over typical 12 year lifespan of a vehicle. In Canada it's closer to 50% with our clean electricity. However this depends on how many miles you drive. For the barely drives urban dweller who got rid of their ICE for environmental reasons it's maybe a 25% reduction. That isn't nothing but if the whole world has a BEV at NA car ownership rates we will be substantially worse of than current ICE ownership rates.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

The average car on the road is not 12 years old. The average car lasts 12 years. Big difference. Very roughly the average car would be something like 6 years old but I think even less as new car sales continue to grow. Therefore the average person is shelling out for appreciation and substantially so. A huge chunk of car owners do buy a new car every even 3 or 4 years. Certainly the Model 3 purchaser isn't someone who buys a 12 year old Camry to get to their minimum wage job.

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

https://www.spglobal.com/mobility/en...cord-high.html

average age of cars on the road in the US is 12.5 years, not the average lifespan of cars. I believe it's a little lower in Canada, but still.

That is not the average of how long a car lasts - it's the average age of the current vehicle fleet. If you pick 100 cars off of Canadian streets randomly, 50 of them would be more than 12 years old.

I would be *extremely* surprised if the average Canadian spends $1,300 a month to own their vehicle.

Originally Posted by Djeffery

That would get you a median age, not an average though. You would need a lot of those 50 over 12 to be over 20 years old to get the average up to 12 out of that random sample.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I stand corrected. I always thought 12 years was average life expectancy of a new car.

According to the Government of Canada:

the average age of a vehicle is 15 years

https://www.canada.ca/en/environment...-vehicles.html

[OldDartmouthMark]

I think the days of subsidizing EVs should come to an end soon, and let the industry figure out how to price vehicles to adjust to the upcoming government sales targets for EVs.

With the government dictating how many EVs the auto mfrs are going to have to sell, it will be up to them to figure out a business case by which to meet the targets, and not up to the taxpayer to subsidize them. The subsidies served their purpose when there weren't any mandates (except Quebec, which IIRC have had mandates for some time... 10%?), but they should no longer be required with the mandates in place.

In the meantime the provincial governments need to be figuring out how to tax EV owners to help pay for infrastructure that they use along with every other motor vehicle. One thing about the difference between gas prices and electricity, is that a good chunk of the price for gas/diesel goes to tax. Now that there is a clear path to forced EV use, there needs to be an equally clear path to be able to continue to pay for infrastructure costs. Sadly for EV owners, it would mean that the operating cost gap closes between EV and ICE, but there's no other way to get around it - this needs to happen.



https://www.canada.ca/en/environment...-vehicles.html

[Acajack]

Quebec's subsidy is 7000 dollars. It was 8000 until a couple of years ago.

The federal one is 5000.


Quebec also offers 600 or 800 dollars for the installation of a home charger.