West Gatineau Tramway & Downtown Loop | Proposed

[McC]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I realize that, but with global warming and increasing highway congestion, we need to reconsider how we want to move goods. The problem is we are subsidizing the trucking industry by providing them with cheap access to highways but the railways have to pay for their own track. As a result, this change would require government intervention to encourage freight to be delivered closer to its final destination by rail. It would likely save the government money in the long run in reduced highway maintenance costs.

If that were true, jurisdictions with toll highways, congestion charges and higher fuel prices would already have vibrant shortline freight rail sectors.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

That would probably be too expensive. The simplest solution is as described above: connect Belfast yard to the Via tracks and then route trains via Walkley Yard and then the Trillium Line.

Why is this too expensive? A single short connector track at Bayview is expensive? As it stands, we still need a connector to the VIA Rail line and another at Bayview and the trains will not be able operate under their own power to reach Bayview.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Why is this too expensive? A single short connector track at Bayview is expensive? As it stands, we still need a connector to the VIA Rail line and another at Bayview and the trains will not be able operate under their own power to reach Bayview.

It's more expensive than connecting Belfast Yard to the existing tracks on the other side of the wall in the yard. There'd be a significant amount of material required to build an adequate rail ramp between the Confederation Line and the PoW bridge, not to mention overpasses across pedestrian paths and stuff.

The Via line is connected to the Trillium Line via Walkley Yard. A freight locomotive could pull the assembled LRV's across the bridge overnight. (Passenger rail vehicles usually aren't delivered under their own power anyway).

[McC]

Why are you guys making this so complicated, if we can shunt windmill parts around with trucks, we can move a couple of dozen LRVs. This is a lot of effort and cost to resolve a purely aesthetic problem with a rail vehicle moving by truck.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by McC

If that were true, jurisdictions with toll highways, congestion charges and higher fuel prices would already have vibrant shortline freight rail sectors.

What jurisdictions are you referring to? I don't know of any that have substantial enough fees on the trucking industry to see private investment in new shortline railways. Most shortline railways were torn up decades ago and the capital cost of building a new one with a new intermodal yard is very high. A significant cost savings for shippers would be required to spawn private investment and that would take decades to raise funds and construct.

The reality is it would likely require more than a few small fees on trucking, but significant government investment in railways.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by McC

Why are you guys making this so complicated, if we can shunt windmill parts around with trucks, we can move a couple of dozen LRVs. This is a lot of effort and cost to resolve a purely aesthetic problem with a rail vehicle moving by truck.

I guess it is, but Belfast Yard is right next to an active rail line that can be serviced by freight. Shipping a train by rail just kind of makes sense.

Half an LRV was shipped to the NRC by truck despite it being pretty nearby by rail. Heck, even one of the TTC's new streetcars was shipped to the NRC by rail.

Regardless, trucks work fine.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

I guess it is, but Belfast Yard is right next to an active rail line that can be serviced by freight. Shipping a train by rail just kind of makes sense.

Half an LRV was shipped to the NRC by truck despite it being pretty nearby by rail. Heck, even one of the TTC's new streetcars was shipped to the NRC by rail.

Regardless, trucks work fine.

I agree. They could be moved by truck, but that involves the use of a crane to load and unload them. As a result, moving them by train might be cheaper and easier, depending on how many are ordered now and in the future. Heck, if using a crane anyway, they could be lifted onto VIA's tracks using a one.

[J.OT13]

A lot to talk about here.

I’ll start with giving the City of Gatineau kudos for using a realistic 700 meter walking distance to display the line(s) accessibility instead of Ottawa’s ridiculous 5 km circles.

I like the routing of the lines for the most part; serving Le Plaeau is important as it is one of the few medium density suburban developments around and has a lot of potential with projects coming down the pipe. I don’t like le Chemin d’Aylmer though. It is much too narrow. The line at that end will end up as a streetcar, which will make it unreliable. I think they should instead go north on Vanier, turn west on Allumetiere and then turn south to serve the heart of Aylmer (just one station) wherever the corridor might be wide enough.

I would like to see a slight reduction in stations (minimum 500 meters between stations outside the downtowns).

As for the connections to Ottawa, I’m very satisfied with the two chosen. Most riders that will transfer at Bayview with be going to Tunney’s (and a few at Carling, Carleton, Confederation Heights), so they will be taking empty trains. Those who transfer at Rideau will be taking partially empty trains.

The connection at Rideau will be interesting. If they use the old CPR tunnel, I would assume most riders will walk west towards their CBD offices instead of walking 2 blocks, go down 26 meters to Rideau Station, embark on a train for one or two stations and go back up 18 meters to the surface. If they somehow connect with a tunnel, then more might transfer. I do think that the CPR route might cause trouble, with people complaining about visual impacts of trains and centenary wires. But the historical “we use to have them anyway” card might work.

The City of Ottawa will no doubt refuse any surface route on Sussex or Mackenzie (as they should). Best option IMO is a tunnel under Sussex (or the Market) with a direct connection to Rideau Station’s platform, but that could prove expensive.

[J.OT13]

Quick addition. I still preferred Fergus’ plan to have the Trillium Line cross to Gatineau and terminate at Zibi. This way, both transit agencies have a foot in the other city.

Furthermore, though the Aylmer/Plateau lines will be operated by the STO, I would like to see them (and any future train in Gatineau) be part of the larger O-Train network. Keep the two agencies seperate, but have full regional rapid transit map with the same branding.

Line 1: Red: Confederation (OC Orleans to Moodie (eventually Kanata))
Line 2: Green: Trillium (OC Bayview to Riverside South)
Line 3: Maroon: Algonquin (OC Orleans to Algonquing College (eventually Barrhaven))
Line 4: Blue: Portage (STO Ottawa to Aylmer)
Line 5: Teal: Plateau (STO Ottawa to Plateau)

And for future consideration;

Line 6: Orange: MacDonald-Cartier (OC Airport to Blair via Bank/Rideau/Montreal)
Line 7: Yellow: Outaouais (Ottawa to Bukingham via RapiBus right-of-way)

It’s true Ottawa seems to have much more debates and consultations surrounding transit compared t Gatineau which seems to randomly announce what seems to be done deals, as we saw with the RapiBus originally, and more recently choosing LRT for Aylmer and now the route revealed.

I remember when they were planning the downtown tunnel, and they presented 4 options to the public: bus tunnel (keep diesel O-Train and build a tunnel for the Transitway), shared bus/train tunnel (electrify O-Train and share the tunnel with the bus Transitway), train tunnel (convert Transitway to electric rail and keep the original diesel O-Train). With all these options, they always end up going with the most obvious one, the cheapest one or what turns out to be both.

Same thing happened with the western corridor (wanted the cheap Parkway Route, when the NCC said no, the studied countless other routes using Richmond and/or Carling and ended up with the Richmond Underground) and recently Kanata.

Seems Gatineau lacks when it comes to public consultation while Ottawa goes overboard.

Looking to Quebec City, they seem to be getting a whole lot more than Gatineau for their dollar with a tramway of nearly the same length, including a tunnel downtown and a extensive BRT network. It’s possible that the two river crossings in Gatineau increase the price. Or possibly, Quebec is way underestimating the cost of their proposal.

The idea of using Belfast Yards to assemble Gatineau trains; that’s unfortunately not possible. The yards will be used at full capacity for regular rail operations once Stage 2 opens. No room for continued assembly. Gatineau would have to do like Ottawa and build their rail yard early to use as an assembly plant.

[OCCheetos]

Although Gatineau trains will likely never be built at Belfast, it might be interesting to note that the original concept for Belfast Yard did include a connection to the VIA tracks.

http://www.ligneconfederationline.ca...34to43_3MB.pdf

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The idea of using Belfast Yards to assemble Gatineau trains; that’s unfortunately not possible. The yards will be used at full capacity for regular rail operations once Stage 2 opens. No room for continued assembly. Gatineau would have to do like Ottawa and build their rail yard early to use as an assembly plant.

Doesn't that depend on if they build the Moodie MSF? It is still up in the air depending on final pricing.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I have put a guess as to where I think the line will run into Google MyMaps:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=12h...lW&usp=sharing

Downtown Hull is the big question. They may decide to follow Laurier instead.

I have updated the map to show the route as shown in the most recent map (as best as I could). I also added the Rapibus line, the O-Train lines and even the southeastern transitway. I also put in a few variations that have been talked about as separate layers that are off by default.

When I get a chance, I will add Stage 2 LRT (it should be complete by the time this is built), the southwestern transitway and maybe even the Baseline BRT.

All in all, it looks like a pretty impressive network once finished.

[FFX-ME]

rather than calling one the O-train and the other the train-G we should really take this opportunity to join interprovincial transit under the same roof. So maybe both systems should just be called the GO-train.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

rather than calling one the O-train and the other the train-G we should really take this opportunity to join interprovincial transit under the same roof. So maybe both systems should just be called the GO-train.

Pretty sure Ottawa would want to be on top so it would be the OG-Train!

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by roger1818
I have updated the map to show the route as shown in the most recent map (as best as I could). I also added the Rapibus line, the O-Train lines and even the southeastern transitway. I also put in a few variations that have been talked about as separate layers that are off by default.

Google MyMaps:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=12h...lW&usp=sharing

Of course, once you take the Trillium Line over to the Gaineau side, if Gatineau has already added tracks for their train across the Alexandra Bridge, then the Trillium trains might be able to do that branch to the Chateau Laurier too.

Voila, the Trillium Line then goes all the way downtown. And the routing is not that much further than if it had turned at Bayview.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Of course, once you take the Trillium Line over to the Gaineau side, if Gatineau has already added tracks for their train across the Alexandra Bridge, then the Trillium trains might be able to do that branch to the Chateau Laurier too.

Voila, the Trillium Line then goes all the way downtown. And the routing is not that much further than if it had turned at Bayview.

As much of a good idea as that is, Gatineau is looking to run at-grade LRT which the Trillium Line trains can not be used on.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

As much of a good idea as that is, Gatineau is looking to run at-grade LRT which the Trillium Line trains can not be used on.

Why not?

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

Why not?

This was discussed in the Western Corridor LRT thread.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

This was discussed in the Western Corridor LRT thread.

which post?

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by OtrainUser

which post?

Starting with post #1292.

The gist of it though is that the DMU's used on the Trillium Line aren't designed to be used in mixed traffic like conventional LRT trains are.