The Climate Change Discussion Thread

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

That’s an interesting and well thought out take. I can agree with many points. However, there is something that you’re missing. Boomers aren’t some historical generation out of power where there’s 20/20 hindsight. They continue to sabotage and stand in the way of action on Climate Change and appear hellbent on extracting as much as they can before death (be it real estate, travel, wealth in general). They are like the drunken captain of the ship heading for an iceberg while everyone else tries to wrestle the wheel away.

Edit: I realize there’s also young shitheads who roll coal and don’t care about pollution but we’re speaking in broad terms here.

I don’t think it is just the shitheads. I think there is zero indication that Gen X or Millennials have any different lifestyle than boomers in a similar income bracket, and I would argue for their age millennials are actually worse. Where their parents packed kids in a station wagon for a road trip to Florida millennials are maxing out emissions by flying to exotic destinations.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

That’s an interesting and well thought out take. I can agree with many points. However, there is something that you’re missing. Boomers aren’t some historical generation out of power where there’s 20/20 hindsight. They continue to sabotage and stand in the way of action on Climate Change and appear hellbent on extracting as much as they can before death (be it real estate, travel, wealth in general). They are like the drunken captain of the ship heading for an iceberg while everyone else tries to wrestle the wheel away.

Edit: I realize there’s also young shitheads who roll coal and don’t care about pollution but we’re speaking in broad terms here.

But you shouldn't blame any one generation as inherently worse than any other, largely we are all just innocent bystanders of events beyond our control, products of the zeitgeist, perhaps victims of capitalist propaganda etc.. If you were a bit older, you would be of that generation as well, and you wouldn't be any different, buying into whatever reality seems to be at the time. It's hard to accept, but regardless of generation, we are all just human, and to blame others is just myopic hypocrisy. I shared your frustration and observed this acquiescent behavior for a long time, but changing it is seemingly intractable at best.

[Truenorth00]

Nobody is saying an individual carries the guilt of a generational cohort. But to argue that generations don't get labelled is to argue that history should stop.

If you don't go out of your way to argue that not every member of the Greatest Generation was a hero, than you really shouldn't go out of your way to defend Boomer avarice, on account of individual agency. But sure. #notallboomers I guess....

Like I've said earlier. They aren't going to be judged on what they did when they didn't know anything. But every generation is going to get judged on what we did knowing what we know today. Still opposing policies that cut emissions? Still voting for politicians who deny climate change? Well, don't be too upset when a graph of your cohorts voting preferences ends up in an article discussing the politics of climate change after we're gone.....

To be fair, on issues like Climate Change, the Silent Generation was actually far worse. And Gen X is closer to the Boomers than they are to Millennials. But since these groups have been smaller in the last 20 years, blame has fallen more on Boomers.

[thebasketballgeek]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Millennials said the same thing 15 years ago, then they moved to the burbs, bought SUVs, and started taking their kids on Disney cruises (if they could afford it). Boomers probably lived and thought like you do when they were your age, then the 60s hippies became the 80s yuppies and the 90s SUV drivers.

Maybe Gen Z is different. Maybe once they start making money they will eschew exotic travel, raise kids in apartments, bring their kids to hockey practice on the bus and stop eating avocados, chocolate, beef and palm oil. I doubt it though.

Have you considered why most millennials move out is because the inner city properties are far more expensive then the suburbs because of the subsidization the suburbs receive?

Also, it’s a lot more tempting to move out to those new subdivisions when the schools are newer and infrastructure is nicer rather then neglected parts of the inner city. Again this is not by accident as this stems from municipal allocation of budget. Most people in office currently are not millennials or Gen Z so don’t really have the power to make the necessary allocations of budget to these neglected areas. Also, look at downtowns in Canadian cities and they’re not built to be neighborhoods but more like central business districts. You never see any sort of secondary schools in actual downtown city limits. They are usually in the inner city neighborhoods nearby. I’m almost certain if a city replaced an existing surface parking lot with a k-12 school and a grocer nearby it would be far easier to raise your kid downtown. It’s like downtown living has a requirement to be 18+ in order to enjoy the amenities provided.

Of course there are good inner city neighborhoods for families. But for new families moving to those areas is almost impossible because barely any existing residents want to move from the neighborhood due to convenience and high quality of life. The only way to get new families to those mature neighborhoods is up zoning but then the NIMBYs come out in full force.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Nobody is saying an individual carries the guilt of a generational cohort. But to argue that generations don't get labelled is to argue that history should stop.

If you don't go out of your way to argue that not every member of the Greatest Generation was a hero, than you really shouldn't go out of your way to defend Boomer avarice, on account of individual agency. But sure. #notallboomers I guess....

Like I've said earlier. They aren't going to be judged on what they did when they didn't know anything. But every generation is going to get judged on what we did knowing what we know today. Still opposing policies that cut emissions? Still voting for politicians who deny climate change? Well, don't be too upset when a graph of your cohorts voting preferences ends up in an article discussing the politics of climate change after we're gone.....

To be fair, on issues like Climate Change, the Silent Generation was actually far worse. And Gen X is closer to the Boomers than they are to Millennials. But since these groups have been smaller in the last 20 years, blame has fallen more on Boomers.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but frankly I don't care. Sure, you can continue to focus your energies on how much you despise or love boomers, or gen Y or whatever, but my point is that we all have been fed this line of bullshit for so long that we don't even seem to realize how stupid these marketing demographic categories are, and how we've been so brainwashed to think that they are important.

How people are viewed in history will largely depend upon who is writing history and what their opinions are based on the norms of the times. Most history is written from the perspective of the writer, unless it's simple data of dates, places and activities, which will then lack the 'human element' of cultural norms, thought processes, etc. That's why I prefer to understand history from many sources, including articles written from the period, but even that's sketchy at times and is a lot to process. Living in a particular time and recalling the mindset of older people goes a long way for me. Most of those people that I knew from way back have long since passed, but their thoughts and attitudes stay with me, and help me to understand that in actuality, gg, boomer, gen X, millennials, gen Y etc. are really not all that different when you come down to it. We're all just people working our way through life, trying to survive, and in the case of our wealthy western culture, looking for ways to amuse ourselves, make some sort of impact on the world, or just struggling to keep our sanity while all this is going on.

Another thing that strikes me as odd is how older generations who have lived most of their lifespans are being judged against generations who are now in their 20s-40s, who haven't done their life's work yet. Most people in their 20s are full of idealism and cynicism for the previous generations, and always think that the generation before them made a horrible mess of things without having the life experience yet to realize how difficult life can be when trying to navigate through all the shit that comes at you as you move through it. We shouldn't blame the young people either, as we all have experienced naivety at some point in our lives, but at the same time we shouldn't expect that the hubris of youth is going to continue as a straight line graph as they move through life... it just doesn't work that way.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Architype

But you shouldn't blame any one generation as inherently worse than any other, largely we are all just innocent bystanders of events beyond our control, products of the zeitgeist, perhaps victims of capitalist propaganda etc.. If you were a bit older, you would be of that generation as well, and you wouldn't be any different, buying into whatever reality seems to be at the time. It's hard to accept, but regardless of generation, we are all just human, and to blame others is just myopic hypocrisy. I shared your frustration and observed this acquiescent behavior for a long time, but changing it is seemingly intractable at best.

Well said.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Exactly my point.

The reason I pointed out that the 'snowbird' phenomenon applies to retirees is that people who are still in the workforce typically don't have the option of living in a warmer area during the winter. So I don't understand how it can be said that younger generations will never do this as they are a long way from that stage in their lives. Not criticizing your example, it's just that you're working with an incomplete data set.

Originally Posted by O-tacular

The last paragraph wasn’t specific to my family (more of a general thing I’ve seen with Boomers on social media). My father does seem to think all Millennials are lazy and entitled though. Their clueless insensitivity seems to be a common trait that I’ve noticed with Boomers. Particularly when it comes to the housing market.

Clueless insensitivity isn't unique to 'boomers', though. It's a social disease these days, IMHO, especially on social media where people seem to park their brains somewhere else while they bask wide-eyed in the glow of their laptop screens...

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I don’t think it is just the shitheads. I think there is zero indication that Gen X or Millennials have any different lifestyle than boomers in a similar income bracket, and I would argue for their age millennials are actually worse. Where their parents packed kids in a station wagon for a road trip to Florida millennials are maxing out emissions by flying to exotic destinations.

It's just this type of generalization that causes the problems though. Rough ideas based on some sort of imagined anecdote just fuels the fire for others to say "see, this is how boomers think", or whatever. But more importantly, it's just not realistic.

Many millennials are struggling just to find a decent place to live, and the lucky ones are working with mortgage terms that they will be paying off into retirement, if they are even able to retire by the time they reach that age.

We need more understanding of others' perspectives in this world if we are ever going to get through this climate mess. Like I said before, the world is burning down around us while we're busy creating false narratives and shaming 'the other side'. No wonder we're in such fucking dire times.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I'm not saying you're wrong, but frankly I don't care.

For someone who claims not to care, you sure are defensive and quite insistent that such discussion be shut down.

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Sure, you can continue to focus your energies on how much you despise or love boomers, or gen Y or whatever, .

I don't "despise" Boomers. My original response to this discussion started by pointing out that Boomers are still substantially out of touch with these issues. And polling shows that. If Boomers want to be viewed differently may be they need to adjust their views on these issues?

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

For someone who claims not to care, you sure are defensive and quite insistent that such discussion be shut down.

I'm not sure where you're getting that I want to shut down any discussion, nor do I see where I'm getting defensive. However perception is key on a messageboard, and you clearly like to argue much more than I do, so you are free to perceive as you wish. I'll not argue with you...

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I don't "despise" Boomers. My original response to this discussion started by pointing out that Boomers are still substantially out of touch with these issues. And polling shows that. If Boomers want to be viewed differently may be they need to adjust their views on these issues?

Yes, I think we all need to adjust our views on these issues. However the reason should not be something so superficial as 'wanting to be viewed differently'. The reasons are much more important than optics.

Meanwhile, the fire still burns...

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

Have you considered why most millennials move out is because the inner city properties are far more expensive then the suburbs because of the subsidization the suburbs receive?

Also, it’s a lot more tempting to move out to those new subdivisions when the schools are newer and infrastructure is nicer rather then neglected parts of the inner city. Again this is not by accident as this stems from municipal allocation of budget. Most people in office currently are not millennials or Gen Z so don’t really have the power to make the necessary allocations of budget to these neglected areas. Also, look at downtowns in Canadian cities and they’re not built to be neighborhoods but more like central business districts. You never see any sort of secondary schools in actual downtown city limits. They are usually in the inner city neighborhoods nearby. I’m almost certain if a city replaced an existing surface parking lot with a k-12 school and a grocer nearby it would be far easier to raise your kid downtown. It’s like downtown living has a requirement to be 18+ in order to enjoy the amenities provided.

Of course there are good inner city neighborhoods for families. But for new families moving to those areas is almost impossible because barely any existing residents want to move from the neighborhood due to convenience and high quality of life. The only way to get new families to those mature neighborhoods is up zoning but then the NIMBYs come out in full force.

But those are more or less the same reasons Greatest Generation, Boomers, Gen X and millennials followed similar paths, and probably what Gen Z will do in a decade. People are doing what is rational for them. There are no morally superior or morally inferior generations. The problem is the climate has been a victim of all of these generations.

[rofina]

I think at their core these conversations are really only intellectual masturbation, at best.

The core fact is; Western lifestyle is unsustainable. Period.

It doesn't matter the generation or the motivation.

Nothing about what we do meshes with the realities of nature.

Technology at its core will really only work to delay the inevitable, reality is sending signals regardless.

[ssiguy]

God forbid I actually agree with Trump on something but when it came to GHG emission targets and the Paris Agreement he was right because it means little if all countries are not on board.

In an oilprice.com article in April/21, it shows that China increased it's coal fired electricity production more than by what all other countries in the world retired. With that kind of math, it's a zero sum game. Added to this is that China is planning on building 43 new coal fired plants over the next few years.

This is one of the reasons I don't {and never have} supported a national carbon tax.......it hits Canadian companies and not international ones.

This is a similar situation that Mulroney faced. It was Canadian companies that WANTED the GST because, in part, it got rid of the Manufactures Tax. The problem with the MT was that it only applied to Canadian manufacturers and not manufactured goods outside of the country and the GST got rid of this obscene situation creating a level playing field.

A national carbon tax is the equivalent of the MT......it hurts Canadian companies yet gives international ones a "get-out-of-jail-free" card. We need a carbon tax/fees/duty for all products and not just those made in Canada for it to have any real effect to say nothing of being fairer to Canadian companies and workers.

[Truenorth00]

Trump was a moron. And the EU is threatening to solve carbon leakage by tariffing non-compliant exports. Including those from the US. So I assume, you'd be okay with the same treatment for Canadian exports?

[ssiguy]

Yes, Trump was a moron but that doesn't mean he wasn't right.

As for you question, yes I would be OK with Europe imposing similar tariffs on Canada. For international fees/duties/taxes it would be very difficult to do on individual GOODS meaning very high taxes on highly polluting COUNTRIES but more importantly on countries that did not sign the Paris Agreement with REALISTIC plans and policies in place to meet the targets ie phasing out coal, natural gas without carbon capture, ICE vehicle phase-out, natural area protection etc.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Yes, Trump was a moron but that doesn't mean he wasn't right.

As for you question, yes I would be OK with Europe imposing similar tariffs on Canada. For international fees/duties/taxes it would be very difficult to do on individual GOODS meaning very high taxes on highly polluting COUNTRIES but more importantly on countries that did not sign the Paris Agreement with REALISTIC plans and policies in place to meet the targets ie phasing out coal, natural gas without carbon capture, ICE vehicle phase-out, natural area protection etc.

You suggested that we follow the US lead. Which would mean we'd be among the countries facing high tariffs to markets like Europe.

I guess making us more dependent on exports to the US and China is one strategy....

Also, thanks to Trump's incompetence, the US lost 4 years competing with China. They may never recover. He never understood (and you might not either) that the real threat from China is not that they can do cheap manufacturing with dirty energy, it's that they are moving to dominate, if not monopolize, the industries of the 21st century. From renewables, to EVs, to semiconductors. Biden gets this. But it remains to be seen if the US can catch up. Especially when most of their public (and ours) doesn't even understand the competition they are in.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

God forbid I actually agree with Trump on something but when it came to GHG emission targets and the Paris Agreement he was right because it means little if all countries are not on board.

In an oilprice.com article in April/21, it shows that China increased it's coal fired electricity production more than by what all other countries in the world retired. With that kind of math, it's a zero sum game. Added to this is that China is planning on building 43 new coal fired plants over the next few years.

I am sure oilprice.com doesn't have a horse in this race

Stop presenting China's coal plants without acknowledging that China is also investing more than any other country in renewables and EVs. I can't believe how many people are clueless about scale and per capita numbers...

Canada has a long way to go before we can start pointing fingers at Russia, China, India, or any of the other countries that we use to justify continued investment in oil (thanks for the visual, Truenorth):


https://www.visualcapitalist.com/vis...co2-emissions/

[ssiguy]

Of course China is investing in clean technology........I never said it wasn't.

I agree that Canada is hardly in a position to wave fingers but the BIG difference is that Canada is implementing policies that will significantly reduce our GHG emissions making net-zero by 2050 for Canada very attainable.

Emperor Xi couldn't care less about GHG emissions if he tried just as he doesn't care about anything outside of his own borders except for military expansion.

The entire West needs to bring in a carbon tax on ALL countries that have high emissions with no realistic and aggressive plans to reach net-zero by 2050. It will do wonders for our planet and create a level playing field and inhibits companies from expanding to countries with nearly non-existent environmental regulation and China is the poster child of this situation.

It would of course also have the added benefit of bringing this tyrant of a nation to it's knees which is right where it belongs. Such tariffs would also be universally supported by people in the West as China's reputation is horrible and getting worse.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Of course China is investing in clean technology........I never said it wasn't.

I agree that Canada is hardly in a position to wave fingers but the BIG difference is that Canada is implementing policies that will significantly reduce our GHG emissions making net-zero by 2050 for Canada very attainable.

Emperor Xi couldn't care less about GHG emissions if he tried just as he doesn't care about anything outside of his own borders except for military expansion.

This is ignorant. As a country actually likely to be substantially impacted by climate, you can bet they actually do care. It's why they pour billions into cleantech. They just weren't willing to keep hundreds of millions living in poverty while Westerners who care to claim about climate change live in 2000 sqft houses, drive SUVs and eat steak on weeknights. We'd do the exact same thing in their shoes.

[CivicBlues]

ssiguy sounds like a broken record with his China rants and it's clear he would like nothing better than to see anyone who doesn't look like him be driven back into poverty to save the planet.

They should know "their place" after all.