Sports in Canadian culture

[trueviking]

CFL has the seventh highest average attendance for any sports league in the world.

http://www.therichest.com/sports/top...-the-world/4/#

It's only because we are neighbours with a country the size of Europe that we feel our own things are inferior. On a global scale the CFL is every bit as legitimate as any other league.

My biggest regret in Canadian history was the loss at the battle of the plains of Abraham. If we had a linguistic divide with the Americans we would feel different about ourselves.

[osmo]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

So I guess Torontonians can all pat themselves on the back when the Argos die or move to Halifax. Great job!

BTW, the NFL called and since you guys have shown zero interests in your own football we won't be putting a team up there as well.

Toronto is a big place. The Argos would thrive in the suburbs. I hate the idea that it has to 'stay in the city'. The 49ers play almost two hours away from downtown San Fransisco, nobody view this as a issue. The Patriots play 50 miles from Boston, The Redskins and Cowboys also play in the suburbs. The CFL has tunnel vision that the Argos need to stay in "Toronto". The team will do better in the burbs, near all of its core fans. Nobody cares about the Argos in the central city, they can roll out all the bogus TV numbers they want. The Argos will forever flounder in the central city SkyDome or BMO, its a structural issue that has permeated the culture here.

The team doesn't need to die. But IMO nobody will stop on bad habits until it does. Marching the Argos into a equally as bad lease at BMO isn't the cure all.

BMO field isn't the fix a whole generation grew up without CFL football and its hard to sell a new one on the game now. MLS brands its self aggressively on the same quality as European football. its far from the same quality of play but the two games are presented to fans as equals. The CFL can start by forcing TSN to spend some money producing the game. Look at how much more crisp a TFC telecast is then the Grey Cup.... its embarrassing. You know TSN has the talent/resources to do so because they use it during the World Jr's. They don't because they get no pressure to. Only pressure from American sub-broadcasters whom use TSNs feed force them to up their production costs since they can't show that shaky and cheap looking stuff on American TV.

It cheapens the game when its presented in a cheap manner IMO. The idea of CFL being "bush league" comes from it looking poor on television because of TSN. CBC always did a much better job for quality of Greg Cups.

Shaky camera work, poor sound levels... am I watching the Grey Cup or 2nd division Guatamala soccer here? The ref mics alone drove me up the wall, their whistles were leveled to loud. Little things like this matter. They don't pull those gimmicks during Sunday Night Football. Those sports broadcasts in the s
States win Emmy awards.

I'm done ranting. Don't view it as hate. I want the CFL to thrive as anybody else but its easy fixable flaws drive me nuts.

[Gerrard]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Have you ever actually researched Canadian Thanksgiving and the origins of Halloween in Canada/US? If you had you'd know that Canadian Thanksgiving pre-dates US Thanksgiving while the Celtic tradition of 'guising' and the term 'trick or treat' appeared in Canada before it appeared in the US.

You're making a lot of assumptions that aren't rooted in fact. Canadian Thanksgiving and Halloween didn't arrive here from the United States. Why are Canadians so ignorant of their own culture? This is getting depressing.

And perhaps on Grey Cup Sunday we can get back to talking about Canadian sports culture on a Canadian sports culture thread?

Um, maybe you need to do the research. Yes, harvest festivals were celebrated by early settlers to Canada. But the basic tradition of Thanksgiving as it is celebrated now is an American import (as is Halloween), by Loyalists. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it, what's wrong is Canadians always assuming we need to have been the first because of some thread thin connection to a historic tradition that has absolutely zero similarity to the way the holidays have been popularized (i.e. by American influence). Do the research yourself. And chill. I know my country, dear. My blood just doesn't bleed delusional maple leaves.

[trueviking]

^its a very weak claim to say that thanksgiving came from america.

[Gerrard]

Originally Posted by trueviking

^its a weak claim to say that thanksgiving came from america.

It's not. It has its roots in traditional harvest festivals. But the popularization and celebration as a national holiday with all the trimmings is an American import by Loyalists.

The propensity of Canadians to knee jerk over something because it might be American in origin is just sad.

An overview, peruse at your leisure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving

[trueviking]

Like many things in canadian culture it had influence from the US, but to suggest that we celebrate thanksgiving because it was imported from the US is completely wrong....other than perhaps the modern day tradition of eating turkey, the rest of the celebration developed independently from the american's. They are founded in completely different folklore and tradition.

You are doing the opposite of those who knee-jerk against it being american, by not giving enough credit to the true canadian history of the celebration....There is certainly no way to say its 'origin' is american. Certainly there is some influence in the specifics of the tradition...its no different than the coca-cola santa claus influencing modern christmas celebration...american's definitely influenced the holiday, but you cant say the origin of christmas is american because of it.

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by osmo

Toronto is a big place. The Argos would thrive in the suburbs. I hate the idea that it has to 'stay in the city'. The 49ers play almost two hours away from downtown San Fransisco, nobody view this as a issue. The Patriots play 50 miles from Boston, The Redskins and Cowboys also play in the suburbs. The CFL has tunnel vision that the Argos need to stay in "Toronto". The team will do better in the burbs, near all of its core fans. Nobody cares about the Argos in the central city, they can roll out all the bogus TV numbers they want. The Argos will forever flounder in the central city SkyDome or BMO, its a structural issue that has permeated the culture here.

The team doesn't need to die. But IMO nobody will stop on bad habits until it does. Marching the Argos into a equally as bad lease at BMO isn't the cure all.

BMO field isn't the fix a whole generation grew up without CFL football and its hard to sell a new one on the game now. MLS brands its self aggressively on the same quality as European football. its far from the same quality of play but the two games are presented to fans as equals. The CFL can start by forcing TSN to spend some money producing the game. Look at how much more crisp a TFC telecast is then the Grey Cup.... its embarrassing. You know TSN has the talent/resources to do so because they use it during the World Jr's. They don't because they get no pressure to. Only pressure from American sub-broadcasters whom use TSNs feed force them to up their production costs since they can't show that shaky and cheap looking stuff on American TV.

It cheapens the game when its presented in a cheap manner IMO. The idea of CFL being "bush league" comes from it looking poor on television because of TSN. CBC always did a much better job for quality of Greg Cups.

Shaky camera work, poor sound levels... am I watching the Grey Cup or 2nd division Guatamala soccer here? The ref mics alone drove me up the wall, their whistles were leveled to loud. Little things like this matter. They don't pull those gimmicks during Sunday Night Football. Those sports broadcasts in the s
States win Emmy awards.

I'm done ranting. Don't view it as hate. I want the CFL to thrive as anybody else but its easy fixable flaws drive me nuts.

While I think TSN does a reasonable job at presenting the CFL, they do need to up their production values. They have used the same graphics and presentation of the product for what seems like a decade or longer.

As for the Argos, any chance to move the team to the suburbs was blown when nothing was budgeted for a new stadium in York or some other suburb for the Pan Am games. No one is going to spend $150 million minimum for a new stadium now. A new owner might invest $20 or so million or something even more conservative if the province and the city are willing to pay the majority of the cost. As of right now, the only option is BMO or the team will be toast in a few seasons. And that option will, in all likelihood, have to last a couple decades.

[BretttheRiderFan]

Originally Posted by osmo

Nobody wants to believe me when I say Toronto cares nothing for CFL football.

I feel bad for admitting this but I almost forgot about the game. I was out running errands and just came back from the mall, walked by multiple bars and I didn't see the game on any TVs. I saw the Green Bay and NE game on the TVs because I remember checking the score as I was walking to keep track. I actually rushed back home to watch the end of the GB game, but now that it just ended I quickly remembered its the Grey Cup on tonight.

Pure anecdotal of course but this is just another instance of many, and mirrors the numbers I see from working in the industry. This is Canada highest viewed TV event and I found it on zero restaurant TVs as I was in the mall, and coming back home.


I did see somebody wearing a Ti-Cats jersey though.

Well, that GB-NE game was on before the Grey Cup. I was walking home about an hour before the Grey Cup today in Edmonton and when I passed the bars they had the GB-NE game on the big TVs too. But I can guarantee the Grey Cup pulled in five times the ratings in Edmonton that any NFL game did today.

[BretttheRiderFan]

To whoever called a TFC broadcast more crisp than the Grey Cup...I have a hard time believing you've watched either in the last few years.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by BretttheRiderFan

To whoever called a TFC broadcast more crisp than the Grey Cup...I have a hard time believing you've watched either in the last few years.

CFL broadcast look like they're something from the 90s.

Do you think it takes more than a split second to know which nations football I'm watching?

[BretttheRiderFan]

Originally Posted by Stryker

CFL broadcast look like they're something from the 90s.

Do you think it takes more than a split second to know which nations football I'm watching?

If that's the case then your average TFC broadcast looks like it's from 1972.

[Gerrard]

Originally Posted by trueviking

Like many things in canadian culture it had influence from the US, but to suggest that we celebrate thanksgiving because it was imported from the US is completely wrong....other than perhaps the modern day tradition of eating turkey, the rest of the celebration developed independently from the american's. They are founded in completely different folklore and tradition.

You are doing the opposite of those who knee-jerk against it being american, by not giving enough credit to the true canadian history of the celebration....There is certainly no way to say its 'origin' is american. Certainly there is some influence in the specifics of the tradition...its no different than the coca-cola santa claus influencing modern christmas celebration...american's definitely influenced the holiday, but you cant say the origin of christmas is american because of it.

The how we celebrate is essentially influenced by Americans historically, the why is not and often neither is the mythology behind it.

And there's a bunch of things Canadians didn't invent, like Christmas, air, water, the moon etc.

[osmo]

Originally Posted by BretttheRiderFan

To whoever called a TFC broadcast more crisp than the Grey Cup...I have a hard time believing you've watched either in the last few years.

Well ESPN and BSI are the ones producing the games...

ESPN has been getting flack lately because some games they send out the "B team" but overall they remain consistent and even a bad game for MLS by ESPN is still miles ahead of anything TSN pumps out.

TSN nor Rogers produces TFC games its down in house by the MLS League via a contract with ESPN. So all the games, regardless whom is playing, or where, all look the same. All the networks do is add their overlay graphics, some may add extras like sky shots, or stock shots of the city but that is it (CBC would reuse the same Toronto stock shot of the CN Tower for HNIC, not sure if Rogers updated it this year lol). For a league with only 8 teams, and a sole broadcaster having a base level of quality for games is almost mandatory.

My gripe with TSN and its thrifty ways is that we know what it is capable of but they always short change on production any chance they can. Only when forced by Americans does TSN get its act together which I feel is pathetic.

Rogers meanwhile has no issue in making product look good, they invest good technique and resources into Blue Jays games, and IMO the Memorial Cup is one of the better produced sports events in the country which is very underrated. Rogers does a top notch job each year with it.

Its easy to notice once you get the opportunities too see it.

The last chance was when the Raptors and Bulls played. Raptors first American national game in how many years in prime time with TNT pulling the game. I was at that game and you noticed the difference in the area first off as it was re-branded for a NBA national telecast. Some Raptors sponsors had to be covered up and NBA branding was put all over the court padding versus local stuff. Next, outside extra trucks and dishes were present of course to beam the feed to TNT in Atlanta. But you didn't need to be there to notice the differences if you could swap between the TSN version of the game and TNT it was like night and day. In the arena at the bar they had both channels playing and TSN looks like amateur hour in comparison to the way smother transitions and added camera angles that TNT offers versus TSN. People think these are little things but advertisers notice. They want a polished product to host their branding. If something looks "off" or "cheap" it may turn off very specific advertisers whom want a certain level of detail to host their brand.

The closest thing I have seen to a American channel producing TSN quality is ESPN last year had the Raptors in Brooklyn on a Friday night with a bunch of other games going on at once. ESPN had national rights for that day so they had all the games covered. I believed they pushed the Raptors to ESPN 2 and gave them the "D team", one of the worst broadcasts I have watched. Another would be backwater regional games on Fox Sports or Comcast. I highly contested Cubs and Braves game in June is not going to look so great.

TSN essentially has the same quality for CFL as random 2nd tier regional sports networks in America.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by osmo

Well ESPN and BSI are the ones producing the games...

ESPN has been getting flack lately because some games they send out the "B team" but overall they remain consistent and even a bad game for MLS by ESPN is still miles ahead of anything TSN pumps out.

TSN nor Rogers produces TFC games its down in house by the MLS League via a contract with ESPN. So all the games, regardless whom is playing, or where, all look the same. All the networks do is add their overlay graphics, some may add extras like sky shots, or stock shots of the city but that is it (CBC would reuse the same Toronto stock shot of the CN Tower for HNIC, not sure if Rogers updated it this year lol). For a league with only 8 teams, and a sole broadcaster having a base level of quality for games is almost mandatory.

My gripe with TSN and its thrifty ways is that we know what it is capable of but they always short change on production any chance they can. Only when forced by Americans does TSN get its act together which I feel is pathetic.

Rogers meanwhile has no issue in making product look good, they invest good technique and resources into Blue Jays games, and IMO the Memorial Cup is one of the better produced sports events in the country which is very underrated. Rogers does a top notch job each year with it.

Its easy to notice once you get the opportunities too see it.

The last chance was when the Raptors and Bulls played. Raptors first American national game in how many years in prime time with TNT pulling the game. I was at that game and you noticed the difference in the area first off as it was re-branded for a NBA national telecast. Some Raptors sponsors had to be covered up and NBA branding was put all over the court padding versus local stuff. Next, outside extra trucks and dishes were present of course to beam the feed to TNT in Atlanta. But you didn't need to be there to notice the differences if you could swap between the TSN version of the game and TNT it was like night and day. In the arena at the bar they had both channels playing and TSN looks like amateur hour in comparison to the way smother transitions and added camera angles that TNT offers versus TSN. People think these are little things but advertisers notice. They want a polished product to host their branding. If something looks "off" or "cheap" it may turn off very specific advertisers whom want a certain level of detail to host their brand.

The closest thing I have seen to a American channel producing TSN quality is ESPN last year had the Raptors in Brooklyn on a Friday night with a bunch of other games going on at once. ESPN had national rights for that day so they had all the games covered. I believed they pushed the Raptors to ESPN 2 and gave them the "D team", one of the worst broadcasts I have watched. Another would be backwater regional games on Fox Sports or Comcast. I highly contested Cubs and Braves game in June is not going to look so great.

TSN essentially has the same quality for CFL as random 2nd tier regional sports networks in America.

As much as it pains me, I have to agree with you. I noticed a drop when TSN took over the Grey Cup from CBC and it hasn't improved.
CBC really crapped the bed when they let the CFL go. From refusing to broadcast games until Labour Day to the fiasco of the Rider-Eskimo when some twit in Toronto decided to keep a Nick Nolte movie over finishing the game. The CBC acted like morons. Now they have lost NHL.
TSN really has to up its game but I fear it won't.

BTW to other posters here who rag on the CFL/CIS. I really don't like basketball, I don't see the point. But I don't go on a Raptor thread to say how mickey mouse it is, that it is not relevant to Canadians and doesn't matter to a anyone except a small niche cadre in downtown Toronto. So unless you have some constructive critiques that can improve the game experience why don't you keep your thoughts to yourself.
Thanks.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by osmo

The closest thing I have seen to a American channel producing TSN quality is ESPN last year had the Raptors in Brooklyn on a Friday night with a bunch of other games going on at once. ESPN had national rights for that day so they had all the games covered. I believed they pushed the Raptors to ESPN 2 and gave them the "D team", one of the worst broadcasts I have watched. Another would be backwater regional games on Fox Sports or Comcast. I highly contested Cubs and Braves game in June is not going to look so great.

TSN essentially has the same quality for CFL as random 2nd tier regional sports networks in America.

What on earth are you pointing at to say that? CFL games on TSN look no different than any other NHL/NFL/MLB/NBA games on TV. More or less the same graphics, similar number of camera positions/angles, same features (panel, sideline reporters, host, play by play guy).

[esquire]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

As much as it pains me, I have to agree with you. I noticed a drop when TSN took over the Grey Cup from CBC and it hasn't improved.
CBC really crapped the bed when they let the CFL go. From refusing to broadcast games until Labour Day to the fiasco of the Rider-Eskimo when some twit in Toronto decided to keep a Nick Nolte movie over finishing the game. The CBC acted like morons. Now they have lost NHL.
TSN really has to up its game but I fear it won't.

Someone is clearly forgetting how bad CBC production was relative to TSN. TSN improved things dramatically once they took over. CBC really started to go downhill in 1995 when they started doing only half the CFL season (although they did switch back to a full season later on). CBC really did nothing to build any fan interest or excitement the way TSN does, and CBC's personalities were like a montage of the dullest human beings they could possibly find. I'm not entirely certain that some of their commentators and panellists like Greg Frers, Sean Millington and Mark Lee were actually alive.

CBC Sports has just nosedived in the last 10-15 years, which is kind of sad considering it was easily the best sports department in the country until the early 90s. I guess it has fallen victim to successive governments and their desire to neuter/kill the CBC, but that's another thread.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

There were a few production snafu's late in the game - Hamilton were inside the 5 I think and the camera froze, then they cut to some weird high-up camera at the side, then a test screen flashed up before going back to the weird high-up camera again.

But it didn't take away from the entire production.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by FrankieFlowerpot

There were a few production snafu's late in the game - Hamilton were inside the 5 I think and the camera froze, then they cut to some weird high-up camera at the side, then a test screen flashed up before going back to the weird high-up camera again.

But it didn't take away from the entire production.

Yeah, I'll agree with that. TSN broadcasts are usually flawless, but I noticed several weird glitches yesterday. Not sure if they were having a hard time coordinating all of the extra cameras and whatnot, but there were more issues than I would have expected.

I want "DOME THUNDER" to be my new forum handle

[Acajack]

I don't understand the hate for TSN's broadcast.

I flipped back and forth between TSN and RDS during the game. (RDS basically broadcasts the TSN video feed with some graphics in English and supplements with some of its own graphics in French.)

I was watching it on HD and it looked fine to me. It looked like a normal pro 21st century sports broadcast from any country in the world.

I was also flipping with the Sunday night NFL game (Denver-KC) and there was no discernible difference in broadcast quality to be quite honest.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by isaidso

We should make a distinction between American sports and American leagues/teams. If it's baseball, basketball, hockey, football, or lacrosse those are our own sports. Whether one is dialed into ones own leagues and teams is another matter.

I agree. Soccer (British origin) is often cited in these discussions because it's a huge part of the culture in places like Brazil.

But Brazil has created its own homegrown soccer culture, with its own history, style of play and even "lore". They've truly made it their own. To the point where Brazil = soccer in most people's minds around the world even more than UK = soccer.

Soccer in Brazil is not just Brazilians sitting around watching English Premier League games on TV. That's why it's considered to be Brazilian culture through and through.