The Climate Change Discussion Thread

[lio45]

Surely it can’t be a shock to anyone that the province whose main industries are the tarsands and cattle ranching is well above average for emissions per capita?

[ssiguy]

Funny we should be talking about India.........

Currently Delhi is shutdown due to pollution levels being 30X worse than WHO minimum health standards. Schools are often closed in Delhi due to smog but now schools are closed "indefinitely" which is a first. The city is deploying "smog cannons" which shoot atomized water into the air in the very worse places. According to a 2020 Lancet report, 18,000 people die of smog related issues every year..............in Delhi alone!

This is why I am optimistic about India trying to lower it's GHG emissions. India, unlike China, is a democracy and there is a political price to pay for such situations. Indians will begin demanding radical environmental changes lest it kill them and when you get right down to it, our environmental problems are more political than economic.

Conversely this is the problem with Emperor XI's China. He couldn't care less how many people die or the misery it's causing the Chinese people because his reign is secure due to being backed up by his brutality and China's undemocratic political and legal system.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Power generation isn't why their emissions are so high relative to other provinces.

It does all tie together though. Assuming that people are going to use less fossil fuels and more electricity... we're going to need a lot more electricity

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

This is why I am optimistic about India trying to lower it's GHG emissions. India, unlike China, is a democracy and there is a political price to pay for such situations.

The historic problem with India is that its democratic structure has created a cumbersome and ineffective bureaucracy for implementing wide-ranging national policies. It's why they're so much further behind a country like China, because for all of its faults China is able to centrally plan its way into innovation, national policies, and shifting focuses.

It's also not a coincidence that one of the best areas in India for quality of life is the area that typically votes for Communist local government...

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Conversely this is the problem with Emperor XI's China. He couldn't care less how many people die or the misery it's causing the Chinese people because his reign is secure due to being backed up by his brutality and China's undemocratic political and legal system.

Tell us how you really feel.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Hali87

It does all tie together though. Assuming that people are going to use less fossil fuels and more electricity... we're going to need a lot more electricity

Over time, this is true. But right now, the vast majority of their emissions are from oil and gas extraction/production and agriculture. The post I responded to prior, suggested their outsized emissions was because of their fossil fuel power generation.

Originally Posted by JHikka

The historic problem with India is that its democratic structure has created a cumbersome and ineffective bureaucracy for implementing wide-ranging national policies.

There's literally a term for this in India: the License Raj. India has substantially dismantled third system since the 90s, and seen economic growth accelerate since. But there are still limits to how quickly they can build things in India, compared to China. And really, they aren't the only ones. How long do major projects take in Canada?

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Over time, this is true. But right now, the vast majority of their emissions are from oil and gas extraction/production and agriculture. The post I responded to prior, suggested their outsized emissions was because of their fossil fuel power generation.

Hydrogen should help with this. They crying shame is that they never built a nuke in Ft. Mac. Using clean power for SAGD ops makes the oilsands look a lot different from an emissions perspective.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by DoubleK

Hydrogen should help with this. They crying shame is that they never built a nuke in Ft. Mac. Using clean power for SAGD ops makes the oilsands look a lot different from an emissions perspective.

But then you're left with a nuclear energy plant in the middle of nowhere when the oilsands become obsolete. The portable reactors could work though.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

There are several forumers who routinely use that argument and have pretty clear histories of denial and or bad faith arguments. You are not one of those people.

Understood. It's the internet, and while mutual respect leads to a higher quality of conversation, it's neither expected or enforced, so we are left with this.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by rofina

I very much dislike this too.

There a are a few members that are incapable of separating issues.
Its an all or nothing mentality.

Its even with asinine things; oh this guy likes pick ups. He's clearly a climate science denying Trump voter. That's all he can be, defined by one characteristic that happens to fit into a box of other characteristics. So I must subscribe him/her to all of them.

Its such an asinine and unproductive way to view the world.

Yup, this is what I was talking about. Not that I expect it to change, but I do get tired of it.

Even people who appear to be highly educated and/or extremely intelligent in this forum seem to fall into the trap of generalizing and pigeonholing people based on very little information. The rudeness that ensues is mostly what is off-putting and causes me to lose respect for these people, despite the ideas that they may be presenting.

However, I have to remember that it is the internet, which only gives us a sliver of who these people really are. I should try to be more understanding in the sense that maybe in 'real life' they have zero social skills, and might be thought of as assholes by their colleagues and/or acquaintances. There's no way to know, really, but I have to try to remind myself to cut them some slack as they may just be ignorant as to how they are presenting themselves online.

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

But then you're left with a nuclear energy plant in the middle of nowhere when the oilsands become obsolete. The portable reactors could work though.

Fair point, however the siting of it doesn't really matter that much so long as it's connected to a HVDC link. The losses due the line length really only affect AC lines.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by JHikka

The historic problem with India is that its democratic structure has created a cumbersome and ineffective bureaucracy for implementing wide-ranging national policies. It's why they're so much further behind a country like China, because for all of its faults China is able to centrally plan its way into innovation, national policies, and shifting focuses.

In other words, as Justin Trudeau once famously said (not verbatim but that’s the gist): “Dictatorships... get shit done” (I don’t disagree with his point.)

[lio45]

Originally Posted by DoubleK

Fair point, however the siting of it doesn't really matter that much so long as it's connected to a HVDC link. The losses due the line length really only affect AC lines.

But the location totally matters, when it’s time to build (pay for) a costly HVDC powerline to connect it with the areas where people live.

The number of NIMBYs encountered on the way is also something that increases with distance, which can be a separate challenge from pure cost. (See Hydro-Quebec’s Boston link attempts for a recent example.)

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Yup, this is what I was talking about. Not that I expect it to change, but I do get tired of it.

Even people who appear to be highly educated and/or extremely intelligent in this forum seem to fall into the trap of generalizing and pigeonholing people based on very little information. The rudeness that ensues is mostly what is off-putting and causes me to lose respect for these people, despite the ideas that they may be presenting.

However, I have to remember that it is the internet, which only gives us a sliver of who these people really are. I should try to be more understanding in the sense that maybe in 'real life' they have zero social skills, and might be thought of as assholes by their colleagues and/or acquaintances. There's no way to know, really, but I have to try to remind myself to cut them some slack as they may just be ignorant as to how they are presenting themselves online.

And you meant no rudeness or offense by this right?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by DoubleK

Hydrogen should help with this.

Only if the carbon is sequestered.

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by lio45

But the location totally matters, when it’s time to build (pay for) a costly HVDC powerline to connect it with the areas where people live.

The number of NIMBYs encountered on the way is also something that increases with distance, which can be a separate challenge from pure cost. (See Hydro-Quebec’s Boston link attempts for a recent example.)

It really doesn't. What Otacular was speaking to was the very real concern surrounding the risk of stranded assets. Ft. Mac is already connected to the Alberta Interconnected Electric System. Once the load there declines or heaven forbid disappears altogether those generators can still dispatch onto the system and provide generation to other load centers in the province.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Conversely this is the problem with Emperor XI's China. He couldn't care less how many people die or the misery it's causing the Chinese people because his reign is secure due to being backed up by his brutality and China's undemocratic political and legal system.

What a stupid thing to say. Xi may not get his power through regularly scheduled democratic elections, but he still depends on the public's support. The CCP is attacking privately-owned businesses and toying with letting Evergrande fail because social mobility has slowed in China and Xi can't allow China to have all the inequity of a democratic capitalist country and none of the democracy.

China and western democracies aren't all that different: if the Chinese think communism is no longer raising the poor up into the middle class and is instead making the rich richer, and if the electorate no longer has faith that their vote matters because elections are rigged or seats are distributed inequitably, both governments will lose their power. Political systems depend on the faith of the people. Once that is gone, the leaders' demise is not far behind.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

And you meant no rudeness or offense by this right?

LOL... right. No social skills. I told you.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

LOL... right. No social skills. I told you.

The problem with the internet or text messages is that intonation and sarcasm gets lost. I can't tell if you are being self-deprecating here or doubling down on an insult.

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Only if the carbon is sequestered.

Yes, thanks for pointing that out. Green Hydrogen only, not blue, grey or any other colour they've been using to greenwash. I don't view that any better than nat gas.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

The problem with the internet or text messages is that intonation and sarcasm gets lost.

The great thing about the internet is it allows you to edit and review your comments for anything that could be perceived as rude, unlike with an in-person conversation.

I think it is safe to assume one of three things if you are offended by another person's comments:

1. They meant to offend you
2. They couldn't bother to proof-read their comment
3. You are being overly sensitive

You can also usually assume the first and third items with in-person conversations.

BTW, I wasn't using "you" to specifically indict you. I was using it generally.