The Canadian Electric Vehicle thread

[homebucket]

If you consider the price of a new car in 2023 is $57,519 CAD and with gas prices, the value proposition looks even healthier. Both ICE and other EVs will not be able to compete with that.

[logan5]

So we've had Tesla's for quite a few years now. Can they match Toyota for reliability and longevity? That's suppose to be the huge advantage of simpler EV's over ICE.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by logan5

So we've had Tesla's for quite a few years now. Can they match Toyota for reliability and longevity? That's suppose to be the huge advantage of simpler EV's over ICE.

We already know that electric motors are more reliable and require less maintenance than ICE engines since electric motors have been in frequent use for ages on things like metro trains and streetcars. Longer than ICEs even. So we don't need to compare car brands to tell us that. But in Tesla's case, it's still an extremely new OEM compared to most legacy automakers and therefore lacks manufacturing and quality control experience. Not surprisingly, the reports I've seen show it to have more problems than average. But they're mostly problems with things other than the drivetrain itself.

If one wants to just compare the technologies, the more interesting question is to compare the ICE and EV models from the same OEM like GM, Hyundai, Volkswagen, etc. that have both. They still have less experience with EVs than with ICE vehicles, but it would still control a bit better for differences between manufacturers.

[urbandreamer]

Tesla has the most recalls of any brand:
https://www.autoweek.com/news/indust...0Non%20Openers

[vanatox]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

Tesla has the most recalls of any brand:
https://www.autoweek.com/news/indust...0Non%20Openers

Calling OTA updates real recalls is bullshit. Tesla is constantly sending updates.

[homebucket]

The nice thing about Tesla is that so many people buy them. So we should have pretty robust data about long term reliability both from a car perspective and battery perspective. How long batteries can last before needing replacement. What the degradation is like over time. Customer satisfaction scores may be helped up as well since if scores remain high perhaps that indicates the problems are relatively minor.

I do wonder if there is a charging practice standard or if it differs between companies. Like is it better for long term battery health to charge nightly or more intermittently like once a week. Or is it negligible either way where there may be an insignificant difference so it doesn’t matter how you charge it.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by homebucket

The nice thing about Tesla is that so many people buy them. So we should have pretty robust data about long term reliability both from a car perspective and battery perspective. How long batteries can last before needing replacement. What the degradation is like over time. Customer satisfaction scores may be helped up as well since if scores remain high perhaps that indicates the problems are relatively minor.

I do wonder if there is a charging practice standard or if it differs between companies. Like is it better for long term battery health to charge nightly or more intermittently like once a week. Or is it negligible either way where there may be an insignificant difference so it doesn’t matter how you charge it.

This is the kind of stuff I'll be paying attention to. Software updates are all well and good, but how does the hardware stand up?

Also, yeah... batteries. We hear all kinds of 'best practices' for phone and device battery usage/long-term life, but I haven't seen much if anything about EVs. As they will soon be our only choice for vehiclular transportation, it will be interesting to see where this is all going.

[travis3000]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

Tesla has the most recalls of any brand:
https://www.autoweek.com/news/indust...0Non%20Openers

Lets remember the recalls for Tesla's are just over the air software updates.

[travis3000]

Originally Posted by homebucket

The nice thing about Tesla is that so many people buy them. So we should have pretty robust data about long term reliability both from a car perspective and battery perspective. How long batteries can last before needing replacement. What the degradation is like over time. Customer satisfaction scores may be helped up as well since if scores remain high perhaps that indicates the problems are relatively minor.

I do wonder if there is a charging practice standard or if it differs between companies. Like is it better for long term battery health to charge nightly or more intermittently like once a week. Or is it negligible either way where there may be an insignificant difference so it doesn’t matter how you charge it.

I've had my Tesla for almost 2 years. The range when I bought it was 567KM. It's now 557KM. So degradation of less than 2% so far. That's with 90% at home charging. I rarely charge over 80%, maybe a handful of times every year I will do 90-100% but other than that its 80% cap.

I always charge at night or on weekends. I charge at off peak hours, for a full 0-100% charge it costs me $9 of hydro plus the appropriate portion of delivery/HST so it comes to around $12.

If I opted for the new Ontario hydro plan with lower off peak hour rates it would cost me $5 to charge my car 0-100%. But I would have to charge between 11pm and 7am only.

As for maintenance (outside of winter tires which is valid for any car), my only service was for a camera that stopped working but Tesla replaced it for free, and they even came to my house to do it.

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by travis3000

I've had my Tesla for almost 2 years. The range when I bought it was 567KM. It's now 557KM. So degradation of less than 2% so far. That's with 90% at home charging. I rarely charge over 80%, maybe a handful of times every year I will do 90-100% but other than that its 80% cap.

I always charge at night or on weekends. I charge at off peak hours, for a full 0-100% charge it costs me $9 of hydro plus the appropriate portion of delivery/HST so it comes to around $12.

If I opted for the new Ontario hydro plan with lower off peak hour rates it would cost me $5 to charge my car 0-100%. But I would have to charge between 11pm and 7am only.

As for maintenance (outside of winter tires which is valid for any car), my only service was for a camera that stopped working but Tesla replaced it for free, and they even came to my house to do it.

Interesting, just curious what is the rationale for not charging to 100%? Is that a manufacturer recommended practice?

And just so I'm understanding this correctly, does that mean that most of the time you're operating with an effective ~445 km of range?

[homebucket]

Saw this for Kia. Wonder if other manufacturers have released their own similar set of guidelines.

Hopefully there will be a way to test battery integrity when buying used EVs from owners or leasers that planned to use their EV short term and may not have cared to follow best practices.

1. Minimize exposure to extremely high temperatures when parked
Exposure to the extreme heat while parking unplugged is when the frequent danger occurs. An automated temperature control system installed in your electric car will needlessly drain your batteries to keep the temperatures down for optimal efficiency. While this performance should only work when your electric vehicle is on the road using its battery, park your electric car in the shade or plug-in so that its thermal management system functions only using grid power, and make sure a stable range of temperatures during operation either.

2. Minimize the batteries at 100% state of charge
Electric cars already have installed with a battery management system that avoids them being charged and discharged at the extreme state of charge. Keeping the state of battery charge, from 0 percent to 100 percent , also improves the performance of the battery life of your vehicle. Even though a full charge will give you the maximum operating time, it is never a good idea for the overall lifespan of your battery.

3. Avoid using fast charging
If your batteries are soon-to-be die out, using a fast-charging is a great convenience. However, it presses so much current into the batteries in a short period which strains your EV battery and wanes them faster. While it is hard to notice its degradation, eight years of standard charging will give you 10% more battery life compared to 8 years of using fast charging.

4. Control the optimal battery state of charge during long storage
EVs that are parked or stored with an empty or full battery also degrades the battery. If you do not use your electric car often or having a long trip plan, get a timed charger, and plug it in. Leaving your vehicle at 100 percent while parked at a certain place for a long period, the battery will struggle with preserving its state of charge while you are away. One strategy is to set the charger to keep the charge just above the low mark, not filling it up to the maximum capacity, at an average charge level between 25 percent and 75 percent.

[travis3000]

Originally Posted by homebucket

Interesting, just curious what is the rationale for not charging to 100%? Is that a manufacturer recommended practice?

And just so I'm understanding this correctly, does that mean that most of the time you're operating with an effective ~445 km of range?

For the base model Tesla 3 they recommend charging to 100% all the time. Different battery technology. But for all other models (long range, performance, Y, S, X) you are recommended to charge to only 90% to preserve the battery long term. I choose 80%, and sometimes even 75% because battery enthusiasts have proven in tests that degradation is MUCH better when you do this.

So yes I'm operating with 445KM range most times in my day to day life. For road trips I charge to 90-95 or even 100% however to make it easier. But I find that on the day to day life there's no need to charge to full when Im only driving 50-200KM in any given day. Might as well treat the battery better. Even people who commute 200KM per day would easily be able to charge to 80% and have lots leftover.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by homebucket

Interesting, just curious what is the rationale for not charging to 100%? Is that a manufacturer recommended practice?

And just so I'm understanding this correctly, does that mean that most of the time you're operating with an effective ~445 km of range?

reduces battery degradation to only operate on an 80% charge.
And yes, it would mean you would only be operating on a 450km charge, but you rarely need more than that.

For me - I might need more than 450km on a single charge once or twice a year when I'm planning on driving particularly far.. 450km still gets you a very respectable distance.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by logan5

So we've had Tesla's for quite a few years now. Can they match Toyota for reliability and longevity? That's suppose to be the huge advantage of simpler EV's over ICE.

I guess it depends what you want to measure. There's time and distance.

The sample sizes are limited, but lots of Teslas are into the 200-300K kms range, the batteries and motor seem to be holding up well.

With so many fewer parts to maintain and potentially replace, it's hard to compare IMO.

Certainly they aren't as bad as early entry Korean vehicles from the 90s.

[Innsertnamehere]

I fully expect EV quality and reliability gaps to shrink significantly over ICE cars. Build Quality issues will be more limited to fit and finish, not core components of the vehicle.

Still probably some major differences, but I think even cheap cars will be lasting more than 150,000km, unlike many Kia and Stellantis vehicles of today which are lucky to hit the 150,000km mark. A Kia or Stellantis EV will likely still have bigger repair bills than a Toyota EV.. but they will be focused on broken electronics or something, not the drivetrain which causes the vehicle to be written off.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

I fully expect EV quality and reliability gaps to shrink significantly over ICE cars. Build Quality issues will be more limited to fit and finish, not core components of the vehicle.

Still probably some major differences, but I think even cheap cars will be lasting more than 150,000km, unlike many Kia and Stellantis vehicles of today which are lucky to hit the 150,000km mark. A Kia or Stellantis EV will likely still have bigger repair bills than a Toyota EV.. but they will be focused on broken electronics or something, not the drivetrain which causes the vehicle to be written off.

Yeah it will vary. We have manufacturers that have made ICE vehicles for a century and they still produce low end models that blow head gaskets before 100K.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

I fully expect EV quality and reliability gaps to shrink significantly over ICE cars. Build Quality issues will be more limited to fit and finish, not core components of the vehicle.

Still probably some major differences, but I think even cheap cars will be lasting more than 150,000km, unlike many Kia and Stellantis vehicles of today which are lucky to hit the 150,000km mark. A Kia or Stellantis EV will likely still have bigger repair bills than a Toyota EV.. but they will be focused on broken electronics or something, not the drivetrain which causes the vehicle to be written off.

I think your views on Kia are outdated.
The new models are no longer bargain basement get you out off the lot for under $20k.

It's a decent brand now. Should be placed ahead of Stellantis aka Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep products

If you don't believe me go to your nearest dealership and check them out in person

[Nashe]

My current ICE is 7 years old now (though only has 111,000km on it and is in pretty good shape) and while I was thinking about a small SUV within the next two years.... now I'm considering I might try to stretch the Jetta for a couple of more beyond that and look at the then-version of the ID4 or whatever is on the market at the time.

I know ICE isn't going to disappear overnight, but considering buying a new car right NOW is kinda sucky timing. :/

I don't REGULARLY drive more than 500km in a stretch, but I admit, like many Canadians I probably worry more about not being able to do that than I probably should...

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by Wigs

I think your views on Kia are outdated.
The new models are no longer bargain basement get you out off the lot for under $20k.

It's a decent brand now. Should be placed ahead of Stellantis aka Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep products

If you don't believe me go to your nearest dealership and check them out in person

putting leather seats and soft-touch surfaces in doesn't mean the underlying build quality has changed, and ultimately there is a reason you see very few 10+ year old KIAs on the road..

I agree that Stellantis is probably bottom-barrel quality right now and KIAs aren't the complete joke they were in the 2000's, but they still have huge build quality issues and sell the cheapest vehicles on the market beyond maybe Mitsubishi, which have even bigger build quality problems.

I have pretty high standards for vehicles though, I probably wouldn't touch an ICE GM, Stellantis, Hyundai, Kia, Mitsubishi or some Ford models with a 10-foot pole.. I would probably shrink that list for EVs though, particularly GMs and Hyundai which are already straddling the "acceptable quality" line in my mind.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by Nashe

My current ICE is 7 years old now (though only has 111,000km on it and is in pretty good shape) and while I was thinking about a small SUV within the next two years.... now I'm considering I might try to stretch the Jetta for a couple of more beyond that and look at the then-version of the ID4 or whatever is on the market at the time.

I know ICE isn't going to disappear overnight, but considering buying a new car right NOW is kinda sucky timing. :/

I don't REGULARLY drive more than 500km in a stretch, but I admit, like many Canadians I probably worry more about not being able to do that than I probably should...

It's a baby! you have lots of time still. I have a 6-year old Civic with basically the same mileage and I barely even consider it mid-life.. You have a lot of time left, especially since you aren't putting a lot of mileage on it.