[Saint John] Uptown Thread

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by sailor734

MonctonRad posted some office vacancy numbers in the statistics thread. SJ is at 35%!

I guess I shouldn't be that shocked. Was in the Market over the noon hour today...very quiet. Then drove down King and past Market Square. The outdoor section of the boardwalk patios looked to be less than 30-40% full and the newly completed version of Loyalist Plaza was completely empty. I literally didn't see a single person in that expanse of stone pavers. Nobody strolling, nobody sitting on a wall or bench eating their lunch or reading a book....nothing.

Reading that 35% statistic and then looking around the uptown at noon hour makes me realize how much things have changed in the past 4-5 years.

It's odd that this was your experience, I was walking around and had lunch Uptown today and even said out loud to my friends that it was nice to see so many people out enjoying the weather. I guess anecdotal experiences continue to be just that.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

It's odd that this was your experience, I was walking around and had lunch Uptown today and even said out loud to my friends that it was nice to see so many people out enjoying the weather. I guess anecdotal experiences continue to be just that.

Oh certainly. I may have just happened to drive by when the plaza was empty.
The City Market, on the other hand, is a shadow of it's pre Covid self. To be fair though, it's also summer so there wasn't the high school lunch crowd.

[Sabien]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Oh certainly. I may have just happened to drive by when the plaza was empty.
The City Market, on the other hand, is a shadow of it's pre Covid self. To be fair though, it's also summer so there wasn't the high school lunch crowd.

When I was there from 6pm-8pm every restaurant was filled to capacity and roughly 100 people strolling around enjoying the evening. We sat on a bench a people watched for a while. Lots of smiles walked by. It’ll be great when they have live music!

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by Sabien

When I was there from 6pm-8pm every restaurant was filled to capacity and roughly 100 people strolling around enjoying the evening. We sat on a bench a people watched for a while. Lots of smiles walked by. It’ll be great when they have live music!

Oh, I don't doubt it, especially on a nice Friday night in the summer.

My point was more about how the 35% office vacancy rate shows in the way the lunch hour office worker crowd is so sparse compared to years ago.

[RaginRonic]

Just want to say this...

...for a long time, probably decades, Charlotte Street has been such a hub of activity for the Uptown core of Saint John, that it's kind of flown under the radar a little bit.

The repairs that are happening for it now have been long overdue, yes, but the fact they're going on are, to me, Saint John showing the love back to it, and saying to that thoroughfare 'Thank you, Charlotte Street, and now, let us bring you back to your own small version of glory!'.

I think it'll be a much better place to ride on when it's done.

[adamuptownsj]

Absolutely unreal letter to Council in tonight's agenda package. 'Fresh Start,' the organization operating various shantytowns, wants a FIRE CODE EXEMPTION for homeless encampments. This directly follows letters from Bob McVicar and the Steepleview team which express concern about the rampant crime and filth the 'safe injection' site and seacan site have brought to the area. Tonight should be interesting.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Absolutely unreal letter to Council in tonight's agenda package. 'Fresh Start,' the organization operating various shantytowns, wants a FIRE CODE EXEMPTION for homeless encampments. This directly follows letters from Bob McVicar and the Steepleview team which express concern about the rampant crime and filth the 'safe injection' site and seacan site have brought to the area. Tonight should be interesting.

That’s pretty freaking insane.

The city is going to piss a lot of people off if they allow these green zones to operate within residential areas. I’m all for letting people camp out in the woods, but these green zones sound like a recipe for disaster.

My neighbourhood has enough to worry about with Brent Harris trying to turn the Belyea into a transitional housing project, we don’t need to worry next about Queen Square West or the field behind the Belyea being turned into an encampment zones.

Imo, the city should send the seacans to the edges of the city limits beside Grand Bay and Rothesay… since that might actually get the province to step up and build better homeless shelters and transitional housing.

[sailor734]

I see the official opening of the new plaza/boardwalk area was disrupted by pro Palestinian protesters who pushed onto the stage and then later heckled Wayne Long while he was speaking. Very unfortunate. At what point does a right to free speech and to protest trump other people's rights to attend a ceremony like this and enjoy the event?

CBC posted some video coverage of the opening but made no mention of the protest.

Coverage I saw was in this morning's TJ

For those who subscribe......

https://tj.news/saint-john-south/cit...lay-by-protest

Non paywall protected story here...
https://www.country94.ca/2024/07/22/...o-with-israel/

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by sailor734

I see the official opening of the new plaza/boardwalk area was disrupted by pro Palestinian protesters who pushed onto the stage and then later heckled Wayne Long while he was speaking. Very unfortunate. At what point does a right to free speech and to protest trump other people's rights to attend a ceremony like this and enjoy the event?

CBC posted some video coverage of the opening but made no mention of the protest.

Coverage I saw was in this morning's TJ

For those who subscribe......

https://tj.news/saint-john-south/cit...lay-by-protest

Non paywall protected story here...
https://www.country94.ca/2024/07/22/...o-with-israel/

That's the point of protests, to disrupt and demand attention be paid, in particular when those disrupted have power/money/authority. That has been a key tenet of the idea since the beginning.

I disagree with heckling and personal attacks that is unacceptable, but I am happy to have protestors not be silenced from events, especially those that are funded by public funds.

Anyway, this isn't a political thread, so let's focus on the positives of Uptown moving in the best direction

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

I see the official opening of the new plaza/boardwalk area was disrupted by pro Palestinian protesters who pushed onto the stage and then later heckled Wayne Long while he was speaking. Very unfortunate. At what point does a right to free speech and to protest trump other people's rights to attend a ceremony like this and enjoy the event?

CBC posted some video coverage of the opening but made no mention of the protest.

Coverage I saw was in this morning's TJ

For those who subscribe......

https://tj.news/saint-john-south/cit...lay-by-protest

Non paywall protected story here...
https://www.country94.ca/2024/07/22/...o-with-israel/

They didn't really disrupt much other than Wayne Long's speech. It was honestly pretty funny, watching him continue on with his speech as they were just yelling away ridiculous slogans... and it's funny and ridiculous they make such a big deal out of a big bencher signing a document, which they clearly know will basically do nothing to solve the Israel-Palestine crisis. Regardless of how hilarious or upsetting it might have been to some people, it's very much their right to protest.

Wayne might have brought a lot of federal dollars to Saint John, and good on him for that, but he's still emblematic of a politician that takes credit for everything good that happens and ducks responsibility for everything bad that happens... especially one of his style that likes to roll up his sleeves and get into with people in the comment section. He's about the only appropriate person for Saint Johners to protest regarding Canada's stance Israel and Gaza.

Protests slogans during the government ministers speech might have been more effective, if they were actually about issues that mattered to a large number of New Brunswickers and Saint Johners, like lack of affordable housing, or having one of the worst healthcare systems in Canada.

I don't know if the province even kicked in anything towards this new public square, but it was still a pretty notable public event where people's voices could get heard on issues that truly matter to life here in NB... there's far less appropriate they could have chosen to disturb.

All in all, more people are talking about this public event and are even more aware about the new public square with a name that many of us here on Skyscraper Page Saint John will not even live long enough to spell by memory.

It will be interesting to see how many people will call it Ihtoli-maqahamok, or if previous names or new names will pop up to be used instead. I've always thought it was ridiculous to call this area a boardwalk, when imo, a boardwalk is more like a pier that juts out into a body of water, which is something Saint John doesn't really have.

But at least we're finally beginning to see the waterfront really develop. Maybe one day we'll even see the return of a harbour ferry, or water taxis, and other boat services emerge that add a more human touch to Saint John's harbour and waterfront like is seen in Halifax and other coastal cities down in New England. This location does draw people far closer to the water than the previous design, and even though some may see it as a huge waste of money, i think it's alright to see it as positive expenditure, and hopefully a sign of more positive things to come.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Absolutely unreal letter to Council in tonight's agenda package. 'Fresh Start,' the organization operating various shantytowns, wants a FIRE CODE EXEMPTION for homeless encampments. This directly follows letters from Bob McVicar and the Steepleview team which express concern about the rampant crime and filth the 'safe injection' site and seacan site have brought to the area. Tonight should be interesting.

I'm sure anyone who finds themselves living in or close to one of the new "Green Zones" will be just thrilled. Look how lovely a place Waterloo has become ............My first thought when I read the news in the link below was "Waterloo St, well of course it was"

https://saintjohnpolice.ca/media-rel...terloo-street/

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

I'm sure anyone who finds themselves living in or close to one of the new "Green Zones" will be just thrilled. Look how lovely a place Waterloo has become ............My first thought when I read the news in the link below was "Waterloo St, well of course it was"

https://saintjohnpolice.ca/media-rel...terloo-street/

The green zones simply should not be permitted to exist within residential areas. There’s lots of land in SJ that is sufficiently removed from residential neighbourhoods.

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

The green zones simply should not be permitted to exist within residential areas. There’s lots of land in SJ that is sufficiently removed from residential neighbourhoods.

You cannot simply move people out into the woods or into an industrial area, there are no services there and you're basically dooming them by isolating them even further from employment, food, care, etc.

I get it, I have friends who live on Waterloo, I don't live far either and walk to work every day past tents, there are people in very difficult positions, however I feel that vilifying them is not going to help anyone get back on their feet. I say hi to folks I pass in my neighbourhood, treat them as humans, and I hope others do too.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

You cannot simply move people out into the woods or into an industrial area, there are no services there and you're basically dooming them by isolating them even further from employment, food, care, etc.

I get it, I have friends who live on Waterloo, I don't live far either and walk to work every day past tents, there are people in very difficult positions, however I feel that vilifying them is not going to help anyone get back on their feet. I say hi to folks I pass in my neighbourhood, treat them as humans, and I hope others do too.

If they’re living in tents, they shouldn’t be in parks in the middle of residential areas. Most residential neighbourhoods don’t have a whole lot of services anyways.

There’s quite a difference between the middle of the woods, and areas of transition between residential areas and industrial areas which we have quite a bit of in Saint John, but it’s not like some services can’t be brought to areas far away from residential neighbourhoods. Moreover, there’s the transit system.

It’s not about vilifying people for being homeless, it’s about protecting existing neighbourhoods, and not dumping the externalities of Uptown’s homeless population on residential neighbourhoods not currently hosting encampments.

There’s a far greater need for affordable rental housing in Saint John than there is a need for homeless encampment green zones. Council has to worry about municipal elections next year, it would be really stupid on their part to green light a bunch of green zones within residential neighbourhoods. I’ll reserve judgement until we actually see it mapped out where these zones will be, but not holding my breath they won’t make some really controversial decisions that piss off a lot of people.

[adamuptownsj]

No municipal elections until 2026. The reforms resulted in the new municipalities having 2022 elections, and all the unchanged municipalities received the wonderful gift of a bonus year to govern, so the new governments could get a full four years and all our local government elections would happen simultaneously going forward. Probably unconstitutional but whatever, I guess.

There's a massive difference between the 'invisible homeless' who would benefit from housing and support, but they're mostly sleeping on couches and in cars. They're a majority, IIRC. Government at all levels loves to conflate them with the urban campers who are heavily on drugs and need to be removed from the streets for their own safety and everyone else's.

[adamuptownsj]

Infill at St Andrew and Sydney proceeding. Not sure what it is just yet, but I assume it'll be 2-3 floors and residential. https://imgur.com/a/bj2HvaJ

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

No municipal elections until 2026. The reforms resulted in the new municipalities having 2022 elections, and all the unchanged municipalities received the wonderful gift of a bonus year to govern, so the new governments could get a full four years and all our local government elections would happen simultaneously going forward. Probably unconstitutional but whatever, I guess.

There's a massive difference between the 'invisible homeless' who would benefit from housing and support, but they're mostly sleeping on couches and in cars. They're a majority, IIRC. Government at all levels loves to conflate them with the urban campers who are heavily on drugs and need to be removed from the streets for their own safety and everyone else's.

Agreed. Two very different groups of people.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

No municipal elections until 2026. The reforms resulted in the new municipalities having 2022 elections, and all the unchanged municipalities received the wonderful gift of a bonus year to govern, so the new governments could get a full four years and all our local government elections would happen simultaneously going forward. Probably unconstitutional but whatever, I guess.

There's a massive difference between the 'invisible homeless' who would benefit from housing and support, but they're mostly sleeping on couches and in cars. They're a majority, IIRC. Government at all levels loves to conflate them with the urban campers who are heavily on drugs and need to be removed from the streets for their own safety and everyone else's.

Those new municipalities include Fredericton and Moncton? Our municpal government already got an extra year because of covid, now they’re getting a second one? Yeeesh.

Yeah, there’s no debate there’s a huge difference between those two “types” of homeless people. The bleeding hearts on Facebook seem to care a lot more about the visibly homeless, than pushing for policy action that would help give dignity and opportunity to the “invisible” homeless as you’ve put it quite accurately.

If the city plans to remove them from “the street” and enable them to camp out in parks in residential neighbourhoods, that will just be so messed up.

Even if the elections aren’t until 2026… I think people are going to have very long memories about these decisions, if they result in homeless encampments popping up in residential neighbourhoods. I don’t want to be overly cynical, before the city releases any maps on where the green zones will be, but I’m not confident there will be much to be optimistic about.

[KnoxfordGuy]

Originally Posted by adamuptownsj

Infill at St Andrew and Sydney proceeding. Not sure what it is just yet, but I assume it'll be 2-3 floors and residential. https://imgur.com/a/bj2HvaJ

Great ti see infill!

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by KnoxfordGuy

Great ti see infill!

Agreed, lots of places in the uptown that would benefit.

How about the corner of Union and Coberg?