George Massey Tunnel Replacement | Proposed

[Metro-One]

I feel that the worry regarding the bus lane cross over at the bus stations is a straw man argument in a desperate attempt to discredit the transit portion of this project.

It is buses only, the average bus depot is more complicated / convoluted than these stations. I am sure the drivers can handle a single point of conflict (if not they should not be driving buses across general intersections to start with).

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

The images just emphasize how poorly sited that bus transfer station will be... Already I can tell that it'll be a dark, noisy, and basically uninviting place with all the ramps stacked on top of it. And I still very strongly believe that there will be a deadly accident in the making with the criss-cross format. One can only speculate why few other places have built something like this other than the one example in LA that everyone likes to point at...

If they can give me two proper bus interchanges north and south of the bridge, I'll consider supporting it. But right now I can't accept this half-baked verison.

It's a concept model, the builder hasn't designed it yet. For all you know the station could be fully enclosed on both sides with noise walls separating off the traffic lanes, and some amazing lighting fixture could be included.

[GlassCity]

Yeah, I'm really not too worried about the comfort level at the interchanges. I really can't imagine how you could make stations in the middle of intersections pleasant. In any case, their usefulness will more than outweigh their conditions.

The only thing I'm really worried about is having buses from 17A going north onto Highway 99 being able to access the bus station. Though I think it's too late to do anything about that.

[proudcanuck]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Yeah, I'm really not too worried about the comfort level at the interchanges. I really can't imagine how you could make stations in the middle of intersections pleasant. In any case, their usefulness will more than outweigh their conditions.

The only thing I'm really worried about is having buses from 17A going north onto Highway 99 being able to access the bus station. Though I think it's too late to do anything about that.

Not sure I understand why would any bus going north from 17A onto 99 north need to stop at the bus stop at the 17A interchange.

[moosejaw]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

The only thing I'm really worried about is having buses from 17A going north onto Highway 99 being able to access the bus station. Though I think it's too late to do anything about that.

SO theres only one bus that goes from Tsawwassen to Bridgeport and back .That bus could try and go east and loop around SFPR and come back and use the bus stop?

So let me ask you this
What advantage would a tsawassen bound bus (601) gain by stopping at the new bus terminal anyways?

If it were to stop off and pick up passengers at the new center median bus stop, wouldn't those same passengers just get on another bus (that already stops there) anyways to go downtown/richmond?

Secondly worse case scenario it could always stop off at the steveston bus stop to offload passengers that want to go to another destination?

Am I thinking too much here? I can see an issue for future bus routes that leave tsawassen but remember theres another bus stop on the other side of the bridge that they can access 601.

[moosejaw]

Originally Posted by proudcanuck

Not sure I understand why would any bus going north from 17A onto 99 north need to stop at the bus stop at the 17A interchange.

Exactly! Thank you!

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by proudcanuck

Not sure I understand why would any bus going north from 17A onto 99 north need to stop at the bus stop at the 17A interchange.

Originally Posted by moosejaw

Exactly! Thank you!

.... this is almost funny! the image of The Lone Freeway Bus Stop, that is.
Moosejaw, as an American, can you name a US city roughly 2m to 5m that you consider has a superior highway system, in comparison to other US cities?
I wish Vancouver would hire their planners for a few years. Montreal planners would be ok, too; imho.

[Tfreder]

Originally Posted by proudcanuck

Not sure I understand why would any bus going north from 17A onto 99 north need to stop at the bus stop at the 17A interchange.

People travelling from Tsawwassen, Ladner, and the Ferry Terminals transferring onto buses going to Surrey/North Delta, South Surrey, and Whiterock, I'd imagine.

[proudcanuck]

Originally Posted by Tfreder

People travelling from Tsawwassen, Ladner, and the Ferry Terminals transferring onto buses going to Surrey/North Delta, South Surrey, and Whiterock, I'd imagine.

Simple... transfer at Ladner exchange.

[twoNeurons]

To anyone complaining about having buses cross a bus-only intersection... what is the alternative?

Two platforms that would take up more space and where you could have people crossing the bus path to get across to another bus bay? To be honest, a simple light system that triggers a red light for an incoming bus as a bus leaves would allay all safety concerns... and bus drivers drive into bus loops with a dozen bus interactions all the time. I'm sure they can handle it.

[moosejaw]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Moosejaw, as an American, can you name a US city roughly 2m to 5m that you consider has a superior highway system, in comparison to other US cities?

I think any metro areas in any OECD countries have a superior highway system compared to Vancouver. I just came back from a month long stint in New Zealand. The entire country of New Zealand has about the same population as BC. Auckland........ which has a much smaller population has at least one eight lane freeway ripping right through the heart of it. But you know what its a magnificent piece of road. Smooth design with just the right amount of street lighting, no sudden merges or exits, great signage (visibility), raised pavement markers, break down lanes, standardized........... well everything. Something BC in its entire highway system sorely lacks.

But i don't think its as much funding or the space as its so much the mentality. The mainstream crowd isn't as visual or perceptive as the group of people here...which i assume is mostly engineers/designers. I honestly believe people in Vancouver don't want to look like their neighbor to the south....Seattle. Their content with their traffic signaled interchanges bc it doesnt look imposing or threatening. The mere mention of an overpass or elevated structure causes these mamby pambys to completely flip out.

I think the Steveston interchange is a great design, at first i doubted why it was needed. I read comments and even saw the traffic on google maps. However I think it will be significantly reduced in scope. You have the City of Richmond questioning it and even as so much requesting it to be scaled down.

But in any event the project is impressive and it will make us appear like a big city to our freinds down south.
BC99 in its current state does not.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by proudcanuck

Simple... transfer at Ladner exchange.

That adds a transfer to anybody that starts their trip on the 601 anyway. But that's not too important, what's important is that the 601 is much more frequent than the 640 and therefore makes for a more convenient option in accessing the interchange station to transfer to Surrey buses. The 601 was listed in the Mayor's Plan to be added to the Frequent Transit Network, so it would be awesome if it led to the station and created easier transfer opportunities.

[urbancanadian]

I think they have gotten it all right when it comes to the rapid bus setup, except for one thing: the stations themselves. We all know that if you want to attract people to transit it needs to be frequent, reliable, and comfortable. The improvements to the highway itself, including the new HOV lanes will allow us to check off the first two. But I don't think the last one will be met in the current scheme.

As is, the stations will likely be wet, cold, windy, and very noisy. This is more than enough to dissuade passengers, but can be mitigated significantly by enclosing them with glass or other materials in between the bus lanes and the HOV lanes. Think of how these can be made similar to Skytrain stations.

That still wouldn't be enough though. Access to the stations is also very important. Passengers will be discouraged from using the station if it's overly long or complicated to get to. Basically the station needs to have one vertical movement and one horizontal movement, and no more - if possible. It looks like the current setup for the Steveston interchange will force people to go up a set of stairs, cross a bridge, down stairs, along a winding pathway, under another ramp, and back up to grade level (leaving the station). But if you shrink that to one set of stairs, and a straight (enclosed) overpass which could slope gently at the end, then you have something worth using.


RED DIAMOND = Escalators/Elevator
YELLOW LINE = Enclosed overpass

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by urbancanadian

I think they have gotten it all right when it comes to the rapid bus setup, except for one thing: the stations themselves. We all know that if you want to attract people to transit it needs to be frequent, reliable, and comfortable. The improvements to the highway itself, including the new HOV lanes will allow us to check off the first two. But I don't think the last one will be met in the current scheme.

As is, the stations will likely be wet, cold, windy, and very noisy. This is more than enough to dissuade passengers, but can be mitigated significantly by enclosing them with glass or other materials in between the bus lanes and the HOV lanes. Think of how these can be made similar to Skytrain stations.

That still wouldn't be enough though. Access to the stations is also very important. Passengers will be discouraged from using the station if it's overly long or complicated to get to. Basically the station needs to have one vertical movement and one horizontal movement, and no more - if possible. It looks like the current setup for the Steveston interchange will force people to go up a set of stairs, cross a bridge, down stairs, along a winding pathway, under another ramp, and back up to grade level (leaving the station). But if you shrink that to one set of stairs, and a straight (enclosed) overpass which could slope gently at the end, then you have something worth using.


RED DIAMOND = Escalators/Elevator
YELLOW LINE = Enclosed overpass

Nice to see a reasonable well though out critique and solution.

I agree, the stations can indeed be integrated into the interchanges generally as shown, but they will need adequate lighting and shelter. Hopefully they can be built to standards between other bus depots and a skytrain station.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by dleung

SSPers generally have a hard on for all things "big American city", minus the sprawl. Except cheering for massive freeways and sexy flyover ramps will mean more sprawl.

Yes, it's that fundamental mental disconnect that is a serious problem when people are advocating for more and more road space at the expense of transit (because every dollar spent on roads is one that didn't get spent on transit).

[officedweller]

What they've done isn't that bad - the elevator (circled in red) is centred
- so as to be equidistant from either side of Steveston Highway (not just from The Gardens side).
There looks to be a bridge between the elevator and the overpass (then another elevator down, I assume)
On the east side, I don't see an elevator shaft - so maybe the grades allow a direct ramp?

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

In January 2016 the Burrard Bridge bike lane had 53,000 trips, and 2,100 daily trips on Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays (excluding statutory holidays). It's fairly well used during the winter as well.

Just to put that in perspective, about double that monthly number visit Metrotown mall on any given Saturday. You would think a major bridge linking THE region job center with half of Vancouver would get more bike riders in a month than a mall in the suburbs sees in a day.

Just because a number sounds big, doesn't mean it is proportionally big.

Originally Posted by Tfreder

People travelling from Tsawwassen, Ladner, and the Ferry Terminals transferring onto buses going to Surrey/North Delta, South Surrey, and Whiterock, I'd imagine.

For Tsawwassen/Ladner to North Delta/Surrey, you can already transfer to the 640 at Ladner Exchange.

Tsawwassen/Ladner to the White Rock can still be done by transfering at Steveston, which with dedicated lanes should not add on much time. You could also transfer to the 640 to transfer to the 351 if you think that is faster (you might have to transfer to a second bus at Ladner anyway if you are on a community shuttle).

Originally Posted by GlassCity

That adds a transfer to anybody that starts their trip on the 601 anyway. But that's not too important, what's important is that the 601 is much more frequent than the 640 and therefore makes for a more convenient option in accessing the interchange station to transfer to Surrey buses. The 601 was listed in the Mayor's Plan to be added to the Frequent Transit Network, so it would be awesome if it led to the station and created easier transfer opportunities.

The 640 will probably see an increase in frequency when the bridge opens. There is a large industrial job area in Delta, and very few people take transit to the area because just getting to the 640 is a pain. The current transfer from a bus on the 99 to the 640 doesn't exist, so it is impractical to anyone who does not live along its route. If you live in Richmond and are trying to get to Tillbury, you have to ride all the way into Ladner exchange, instead of on one of the more frequent buses that stay on the 99.

IMO, the bus exchange at highway 17A, isn't for Tsawwassen transfers, it is for Richmond and South Surrey riders to change to the 640 to get to Tilbury.

To get between non major places in the Vancouver/Burnaby area, you have to take 2, usually 3 vehicles already. If the 640 (or a Tilbury bus) is frequent when the bridge opens, then using it as a go between between the 351 and destinations in Tsawwassen wouldn't be any bigger deal than it is anywhere else in the region.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Just to put that in perspective, about double that monthly number visit Metrotown mall on any given Saturday. You would think a major bridge linking THE region job center with half of Vancouver would get more bike riders in a month than a mall in the suburbs sees in a day.

Just because a number sounds big, doesn't mean it is proportionally big.



For Tsawwassen/Ladner to North Delta/Surrey, you can already transfer to the 640 at Ladner Exchange.

Tsawwassen/Ladner to the White Rock can still be done by transfering at Steveston, which with dedicated lanes should not add on much time. You could also transfer to the 640 to transfer to the 351 if you think that is faster (you might have to transfer to a second bus at Ladner anyway if you are on a community shuttle).



The 640 will probably see an increase in frequency when the bridge opens. There is a large industrial job area in Delta, and very few people take transit to the area because just getting to the 640 is a pain. The current transfer from a bus on the 99 to the 640 doesn't exist, so it is impractical to anyone who does not live along its route. If you live in Richmond and are trying to get to Tillbury, you have to ride all the way into Ladner exchange, instead of on one of the more frequent buses that stay on the 99.

IMO, the bus exchange at highway 17A, isn't for Tsawwassen transfers, it is for Richmond and South Surrey riders to change to the 640 to get to Tilbury.

To get between non major places in the Vancouver/Burnaby area, you have to take 2, usually 3 vehicles already. If the 640 (or a Tilbury bus) is frequent when the bridge opens, then using it as a go between between the 351 and destinations in Tsawwassen wouldn't be any bigger deal than it is anywhere else in the region.

I guess I'm looking at this from a South Delta resident's perspective, but I think that the 601 will always be the flagship route for South Delta and even if the 640 is made more frequent, so will the 601. As important as Tilbury is, Richmond/Vancouver is a major draw as well. Richmond to Tilbury will be an important trip, but so will South Delta to Surrey. I just feel like the 601 stopping there would increase connectivity without really making the project any more complicated. It's a lost opportunity for no real reason.

[moosejaw]

Originally Posted by urbancanadian

Wow Just read that if the Steveston Interchange is built as designed, it will be the first of its kind. Not sure if its been noted before. Its been referred to as the double crossover merging interchange (DCMI) i believe Vancouver ofthe Future quoted back on page fifty something.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diverg...e#cite_note-17

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Just to put that in perspective, about double that monthly number visit Metrotown mall on any given Saturday. You would think a major bridge linking THE region job center with half of Vancouver would get more bike riders in a month than a mall in the suburbs sees in a day.

Just because a number sounds big, doesn't mean it is proportionally big.

2100 cyclists per day cross Burrard Bridge vs 60,000 cars, 3.5%. You're spot on that the "big" number of cyclists is actually meaningless in the grand scheme of things and quite frankly extremely disappointing for all the money being spent. Your point though does illustrate the fact that people in general can't visualize numbers bigger than 50 reasonably. Once you get bigger than 50 everything seems "big" and seems "the same."

For example, if I say 1 million people use X vs 5 million using Y, people generally see them as equally big even though X is 80% smaller. I mean is $1 billion a lot less than $2 billion? It is 50% less which I would say is a lot. But most people would shrug the difference off because they see 1 and 2 and think "Well 1 banana isn't much less than 2 so 1 (ignores billion) isn't much less than 2 (ignores billion)". It happens constantly with our federal budget when for example they say something like "We had a $500 million surplus!" People go OH WOW that's a lot of money but they don't seem to realize the GDP is 1.82 TRILLION or rather 1.82 million MILLION or put easier, 0.03% which is less than the mathematical margin for error aka MEANINGLESS.

We just aren't built to visualize big numbers. Let's face it in many respects humans are still just monkeys counting bananas. Unless of course someone doesn't believe in evolution in which case we're still stupid humans counting bundles of gold, frankincense, and myrrh.