Your favorite small urban cities in North America?

[sopas ej]

Going through this thread, people seem to be really loose about what their "favorite small urban cities" are. For me, I guess I have an issue with what constitutes a small city vs. say a town---small city, or large town? Urban? How do you define that? "Urban" throughout the whole city or town? Huh? People are posting downtowns, but then outside of them, it looks like typical American suburbia to me.

So I thought I'd post a few of my favorites.

Santa Fe, New Mexico (pop. 84,600). I love this small city. The original center of town is fun to walk around, and can be a pain to drive through---the hallmark of a true urban area, no?
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.6866...7i13312!8i6656

Monterey, California (pop. 28,289). Such a cute town. And old and with historic significance to California. Not only does it have a very walkable downtown, there's another district, Cannery Row, that's also quite walkable (and very touristy).

Downtown Monterey. The Monterey Hotel is very cute. Nice place to stay.
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.5997...7i16384!8i8192

Cannery Row.
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.6159...4!8i8192?hl=en

A few have named Santa Barbara, CA (pop. 91,350) and Carmel, CA (pop. 3,859)...

For me, Santa Barbara has a very walkable downtown and waterfront, but outside of those areas, Santa Barbara is more car-oriented. And Carmel to me is a small town, with a very small town downtown. I love Santa Barbara, btw, and I went to school there for a year. As beautiful as it is, I'm not a huge fan of Carmel---I find it annoying in that pretentious rich folk kind of way, loaded with tourists.

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

Going through this thread, people seem to be really loose about what their "favorite small urban cities" are. For me, I guess I have an issue with what constitutes a small city vs. say a town---small city, or large town? Urban? How do you define that? "Urban" throughout the whole city or town? Huh? People are posting downtowns, but then outside of them, it looks like typical American suburbia to me.

So I thought I'd post a few of my favorites.

Santa Fe, New Mexico (pop. 84,600). I love this small city. The original center of town is fun to walk around, and can be a pain to drive through---the hallmark of a true urban area, no?
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.6866...7i13312!8i6656

Monterey, California (pop. 28,289). Such a cute town. And old and with historic significance to California. Not only does it have a very walkable downtown, there's another district, Cannery Row, that's also quite walkable (and very touristy).

Downtown Monterey. The Monterey Hotel is very cute. Nice place to stay.
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.5997...7i16384!8i8192

Cannery Row.
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.6159...4!8i8192?hl=en

A few have named Santa Barbara, CA (pop. 91,350) and Carmel, CA (pop. 3,859)...

For me, Santa Barbara has a very walkable downtown and waterfront, but outside of those areas, Santa Barbara is more car-oriented. And Carmel to me is a small town, with a very small town downtown. I love Santa Barbara, btw, and I went to school there for a year. As beautiful as it is, I'm not a huge fan of Carmel---I find it annoying in that pretentious rich folk kind of way, loaded with tourists.

Monterey is impressive and lovely. And of course, everybody's read Steinbeck so that's fun too.

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

Monterey is impressive and lovely. And of course, everybody's read Steinbeck so that's fun too.

Ironically, Steinbeck hated what Monterey became; it was no longer the town he knew, filled with blue-collar cannery/fishery workers, that it became a place with boutique hotels, tourist shops and restaurants, basically a painted-up shell of its former self. I think he mentions it in "Travels with Charley," a book I've never read; I learned about what he thought of Monterey at the Steinbeck Museum in Salinas when I visited there many years ago.

Yes, Monterey is very lovely, as well as adjacent Pacific Grove. My partner and I love the area a lot. If we're not weekending in San Francisco or Santa Barbara, Monterey/Pacific Grove is another one of our weekend getaways.

Up Monterey Bay, Santa Cruz is also a nice town, as is adjacent Capitola.

[eschaton]

I'm surprised that the thread has gone this far without a single mention of Key West TBH.

Yes, it's a horrible tourist trap, but it still has the best urban fabric by far of anywhere in Florida. Some of the narrowest streets and smallest blocks I've seen in the United States.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I'm surprised that the thread has gone this far without a single mention of Key West TBH.

Yes, it's a horrible tourist trap, but it still has the best urban fabric by far of anywhere in Florida. Some of the narrowest streets and smallest blocks I've seen in the United States.

Yeah, Key West is pretty cool. Chickens and iguanas everywhere. St. Augustine is nice too.

[bossabreezes]

Key West isn't really ''touristy''(as in tourist trap) off of Duval Street. It's actually extremely charming and pretty much as good as it gets for a small town in the US. I definitely wouldn't consider it a city.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by bossabreezes

Key West isn't really ''touristy''(as in tourist trap) off of Duval Street. It's actually extremely charming and pretty much as good as it gets for a small town in the US. I definitely wouldn't consider it a city.

It has around 25,000 full-time residents, according to the Census. It peaked at around 34,000 residents in 1960, but the decline has mostly been driven by an increasing number of part-time residents who own property but aren't there during Census time. When you factor in all of the random tourists on a given day, the population is probably at least 50,000 at any one time. That seems like enough people to me to be considered a small city, IMHO. I would consider small towns to be more like someplace with less than 10,000 people and a "downtown" that's like 2-4 blocks.

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I'm surprised that the thread has gone this far without a single mention of Key West TBH.

Yes, it's a horrible tourist trap, but it still has the best urban fabric by far of anywhere in Florida. Some of the narrowest streets and smallest blocks I've seen in the United States.

Good point! Key West is lovely and beats all the potemkin urban areas in Florida (like St. Armand's Key lol)

[jd3189]

I think a long time ago, Key West was the largest city in Florida.

[dave8721]

Originally Posted by jd3189

I think a long time ago, Key West was the largest city in Florida.

Wealthiest too. In the 1830's it was the richest per capita in the U.S.

[CaliNative]

Originally Posted by edale

I visited Lancaster briefly when my sister was looking at colleges. Lafayette University is located there. We had dinner at a little Italian spot downtown, and I remembered thinking "how have I never even heard of this city before." It felt like a pretty big city due to the rowhouses and the downtown area. It did feel depressed and not particularly lively. But the form was impressive for sure.

The airport, however, removes any impression that you're in a big city. I remember it being tiny.

Originally Posted by Crawford

Yeah, I like Coastal Northern CA, but I never thought the towns had good urban bones. The people and scenery are interesting, but not the built fabric.

If you like towns preserved in amber, Ferndale is nice. 120 year old Victorian houses. Maybe 20 miles south of Eureka. Interesting and pretty drive to the coast through the mountains to the "lost coast". The town of Mendocino is also nice. Ft. Bragg more working class.

If you think Eureka is depressing, check out Crescent City. The weather alone can make you deep blue.

A lot of interesting towns on the Oregon coast. Some nicer than others. Some working class, some more tourist oriented. Depoe Bay with the tiny harbor is wild. Was seen in "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Next" when the inmates borrowed a fishing boat. Astoria was featured in "The Goonies". Coos Bay has a large working harbor but is gentrifying.

[aufbau]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Eureka CA seemed downright depressing when I drove through it about 5 years ago.

I went to undergraduate in nearby Arcata (cute hippy dippy college town), I haven't been back since 2007 so I'd be curious to see what Eureka is like now. It has a beautiful Victorian downtown, off the awful 101 strip.

But lots of drugs and SF-level homeless for a small city and the weather was grey and depressing. I could never live in a coastal Maritime climate again.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by jd3189

I think a long time ago, Key West was the largest city in Florida.

Indeed. Key West became the largest city in Florida by 1880. Considering it only had around 10,000 people at the time, it really shows more how undeveloped/rural Florida was at that time, rather than how big and bustling Key West was.

Jacksonville knocked Key West out of #1 by 1900, and by 1940 it was off the top 10 entirely.

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by aufbau

I went to undergraduate in nearby Arcata (cute hippy dippy college town), I haven't been back since 2007 so I'd be curious to see what Eureka is like now. It has a beautiful Victorian downtown, off the awful 101 strip.

But lots of drugs and SF-level homeless for a small city and the weather was grey and depressing. I could never live in a coastal Maritime climate again.

I concur...

Hehe Eureka. Around fall of 1998, my partner and I went on a road trip around California, and Eureka was one of our stops. We were expecting it to be all cutesy Victorian and beautiful coastline, like Pacific Grove, but when we got there, it was NOTHING like that. It is indeed a depressing place, but not because of the weather. We found that there was no vibrancy there; the downtown does have Victorian architecture, but the only really notable building there is the big Carson mansion. And yes, it did seem like there were people loitering around, all drugged out. We didn't stay there very long; we got in in the evening, checked into a motel, had dinner somewhere off the 101, and then decided to eat breakfast and explore the downtown the following morning. And that's when we encountered the drugged-out loiterers... we walked around a bit, and then decided it was time to push on to Weaverville, which itself is a cute historic mountain town, and the drive there is gorgeous in the fall.

What was really freaky when we got back from our road trip, was not too long after that, news had broken out that a serial killer had turned himself in at the Eureka police station or Humboldt County sheriff's station, carrying a severed breast in his pocket or something. Really creepy!

[craigs]

Originally Posted by CaliNative

If you like towns preserved in amber, Ferndale is nice. 120 year old Victorian houses. Maybe 20 miles south of Eureka. Interesting and pretty drive to the coast through the mountains to the "lost coast". The town of Mendocino is also nice. Ft. Bragg more working class.

If you think Eureka is depressing, check out Crescent City. The weather alone can make you deep blue.

A lot of interesting towns on the Oregon coast. Some nicer than others. Some working class, some more tourist oriented. Depoe Bay with the tiny harbor is wild. Was seen in "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Next" when the inmates borrowed a fishing boat. Astoria was featured in "The Goonies". Coos Bay has a large working harbor but is gentrifying.

I haven't been to Coos Bay in a couple years, but last I was there it was deader than a door nail. Like maybe three pedestrians total on the main drag despite being the biggest city in its region.

Originally Posted by sopas ej

I concur...

Hehe Eureka. Around fall of 1998, my partner and I went on a road trip around California, and Eureka was one of our stops. We were expecting it to be all cutesy Victorian and beautiful coastline, like Pacific Grove, but when we got there, it was NOTHING like that. It is indeed a depressing place, but not because of the weather. We found that there was no vibrancy there; the downtown does have Victorian architecture, but the only really notable building there is the big Carson mansion. And yes, it did seem like there were people loitering around, all drugged out. We didn't stay there very long; we got in in the evening, checked into a motel, had dinner somewhere off the 101, and then decided to eat breakfast and explore the downtown the following morning. And that's when we encountered the drugged-out loiterers... we walked around a bit, and then decided it was time to push on to Weaverville, which itself is a cute historic mountain town, and the drive there is gorgeous in the fall.

What was really freaky when we got back from our road trip, was not too long after that, news had broken out that a serial killer had turned himself in at the Eureka police station or Humboldt County sheriff's station, carrying a severed breast in his pocket or something. Really creepy!

Weaverville is definitely cute and historic, and the big old "New York Hotel" on the main drag (really, the only drag) that was vacant for ages has been restored, but Weaverville is tiny and a shadow of its former self. We're talking 3,500 people, exactly one traffic signal, and wilderness for dozens of miles to the east and west and hundreds of miles to the north and south.

[KB0679]

Did we get this far in the thread without Wilmington, DE being mentioned?

In Georgia, Savannah and Athens are the small cities that get all the shine and understandably so. But Macon has surprisingly good intact urban bones and a downtown footprint that seems more fitting for a city a bit larger.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by KB0679

Did we get this far in the thread without
Wilmington, DE being mentioned?

The Philly metro has grown to encompass Northern Delaware, so it arguably wouldn't count under the terms of this thread. Though people have brought up cities which assuredly shouldn't count like those in Hudson County NJ.

Wilmington has a really nice rowhouse fabric similar to a lot of other Mid-Atlantic cities. However, it's strangely lacking commercial vitality. The downtown area has some activity, but it's mostly downscale. This is probably because it's flanked with low-income neighborhoods on both sides, which scares many would-be gentrifiers away.

There are upscale neighborhoods within city limits (EDIT - the urban core), which stands in contrast to somewhere like say York or Allentown, which basically have none. They include Mid-Town and Trolley Square. However, there's no evidence of traditional urban business districts. This is what the commercial node of Trolley Square looks like, for example. I dunno if the area never had much commercial vitality, or there was some ill-advised small-scale urban renewal.

Originally Posted by KB0679

In Georgia, Savannah and Athens are the small cities that get all the shine and understandably so. But Macon has surprisingly good intact urban bones and a downtown footprint that seems more fitting for a city a bit larger.

Macon looks like it has an interesting downtown, but typical of smaller southern cities, it looks like it's almost totally bereft of residents. Basically one remaining big walkup and a really quick transition to suburban density once you get outside the core. There's some cool urban vernacular remaining on this block, though the extra-wide street with the grassy median kinda detracts from the urban feel.

[JMKeynes]

Charleston

Savannah

Newport, RI

Burlington, VT

Lancaster, Pa

[UrbanRevival]

Originally Posted by eschaton

There are upscale neighborhoods within city limits, which stands in contrast to somewhere like say York or Allentown, which basically have none.

Just a quick nit that although not as familiar with York (although clearly the city had money at some point given its architecture), Allentown does still have modern-day wealth in its confines, although it's mostly located in the leafier/more spacious West End (which is not insignificant in scale): https://goo.gl/maps/rQW9UztCwGi55Cp28.

However, there are sections of its rowhome neighborhoods (such as Old Allentown) that appear at least solidly-middle class: https://goo.gl/maps/BvXfQ7fW41GXhs3b8

But to your main point, Wilmington is indeed very overshadowed/underrated for its offerings as small city, and even moreso in terms of what it offers in vibrant urban neighborhoods. Good highlights!

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by UrbanRevival

Just a quick nit that although not as familiar with York (although clearly the city had money at some point given its architecture), Allentown does still have modern-day wealth in its confines, although it's mostly located in the leafier/more spacious West End (which is not insignificant in scale): https://goo.gl/maps/rQW9UztCwGi55Cp28.

You're right, I shouldn't have been so loose as to say "city limits." Though that area is pretty functionally suburban. My point is there's not really gentrification within the urban core of Allentown as of yet.

Originally Posted by UrbanRevival

However, there are sections of its rowhome neighborhoods (such as Old Allentown) that appear at least solidly-middle class: https://goo.gl/maps/BvXfQ7fW41GXhs3b8

Certainly there's some nice architecture, and Allentown's core does not really seem to be slummy or blighted. But all of the neighborhoods around downtown are majority Latino these days (other than a small gated community of modern townhouses to the south of the CBD). The block you highlighted only had 6 residents in 2010, FWIW.