Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by thewave46

I'm curious about that project.

Just a project to link the right bank and left bank of the St Lawrence in Québec City via a tunnel. It's common sense to build it IMO, but it's massively opposed, as are all infrastructure projects all across the Western world (Greens, NIMBYs, anti-tax people). Today's generation is a generation of pampered dwarves. They wouldn't even build the autoroute/freeway network today.

[harls]

It was pretty cool to work at a polling station yesterday, in the province of Quebec - open the box, count the votes, and read all the comments here.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Loco101

What do you mean by that?!?

They are part of the country on paper, but they are essentially another society. If you live in the rest of Canada, what difference does it make if Québec is formally part of Canada or isn't? It's not like you would watch their TV stations or read their newspapers. And as for living there, few Canadians from the rest of Canada will ever do it, and moving there is anyway not very different from moving to an independent Québec in a free-border union with Canada (as are EU countries, and as an independent Québec and Canada would be). Perhaps the only difference is social security and pensions (but are these federal or provincial?).

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by harls

It was pretty cool to work at a polling station yesterday, in the province of Quebec - open the box, count the votes, and read all the comments here.

Do they say "a voté" out loud after someone put their ballot in the ballot box? Or is it all electronic voting?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

They are part of the country on paper, but they are essentially another society. If you live in the rest of Canada, what difference does it make if Québec is formally part of Canada or isn't? It's not like you would watch their TV stations or read their newspapers. And as for living there, few Canadians from the rest of Canada will ever do it, and moving there is anyway not very different from moving to an independent Québec in a free-border union with Canada (as are EU countries, and as an independent Québec and Canada would be). Perhaps the only difference is social security and pensions (but are these federal or provincial?).

One very real effect of Quebec’s presence (second most important province) is that the Federal government is further left than it otherwise would be.

[lio45]

That’s also why I’ve always found QS’s enviro-based sovereigntism to be completely stupid.

The net effect on the world (as Anglo-Canada becomes controlled by a party that opposes carbon taxation, etc.) is negative.

You want to make Quebec as green as possible, fine, but you’re not helping the environment (on a global level) by taking it out of Canada.

[lio45]

How many of you had the word “kakistocracy” in your vocabulary before 2018?

Pretty epic pun, IMO. (I’m not the one who gets credit!)

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

They are part of the country on paper, but they are essentially another society. If you live in the rest of Canada, what difference does it make if Québec is formally part of Canada or isn't? It's not like you would watch their TV stations or read their newspapers. And as for living there, few Canadians from the rest of Canada will ever do it, and moving there is anyway not very different from moving to an independent Québec in a free-border union with Canada (as are EU countries, and as an independent Québec and Canada would be). Perhaps the only difference is social security and pensions (but are these federal or provincial?).

Maybe we could state something similar about Alsace or Corsica or Pays Basque. Vis a vis France.

Quebec is integral to my definition of Canada. Essential. It would be a horrible mistake to lose that founding component of Canada.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by lio45

One very real effect of Quebec’s presence (second most important province) is that the Federal government is further left than it otherwise would be.

But a large part of the Québécois vote for a party (Bloc québécois) which does not take part in federal government formation, does it? So what would it change at the federal level if Québec wasn't there? A few less Liberal MPs I suppose (which Western Canada would quite appreciate, ironically).

[harls]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Do they say "a voté" out loud after someone put their ballot in the ballot box? Or is it all electronic voting?

No. Might be fuckin' stupid to tell someone how it works on the internet too.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Maybe we could state something similar about Alsace or Corsica or Pays Basque. Vis a vis France.

Absolutely not. This is like comparing polar bears and Swiss chocolate.

More than 16% of the population in Alsace was born in the rest of France. And in Corsica more than 30% of the population was born in the rest of France. In the French Basque Country it's even higher (ancestral Basques are now a minority in the French Basque Country).

Absolutely nothing comparable in Québec. The average Frenchman is far, far more likely to live at some point in their life in Alsace, Corsica, or French Basque Country than the average Anglo-Canadian is ever likely to live in Québec. Ditto for vacationing in Alsace, Corsica, or French Basque Country. These parts of France are also far more culturally integrated with the rest of France than Québec with the rest of Canada (how often do people in Toronto or Calgary eat poutine, if they even know that such a thing exists, compared to basically every Frenchman that has eaten at least once Alsatian choucroute, which is a favorite dish everywhere in France? this is just one example).

Not to mention that social security and pensions are the same, whether one works in Strasbourg, Ajaccio, Bayonne, Paris, or Lyon, it's all the same. School system is also exactly the same. Courts are exactly the same. And France is a far smaller country than Canada where people actually drive from one end of the country to the other end, whereas how many Anglo-Canadians ever drove across Québec as opposed to just flying above it?

[Acajack]

It was not always the case, but Anglo-Canadians all know poutine at this point.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

how many Anglo-Canadians ever drove across Québec as opposed to just flying above it?

Quebec is probably the province that the most English Canadians have driven across by car.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

They are part of the country on paper, but they are essentially another society. If you live in the rest of Canada, what difference does it make if Québec is formally part of Canada or isn't? It's not like you would watch their TV stations or read their newspapers. And as for living there, few Canadians from the rest of Canada will ever do it, and moving there is anyway not very different from moving to an independent Québec in a free-border union with Canada (as are EU countries, and as an independent Québec and Canada would be). Perhaps the only difference is social security and pensions (but are these federal or provincial?).

I live fairly close to the Quebec border and go there often enough. Yes, there are societal differences between where I live and say Rouyn-Noranda but I feel more like I'm at home in Rouyn compared to Southern Ontario. But maybe it's because our cities have a lot in common such as landscapes, mining, same trees, many lakes, etc.. There are of course political differences but there are surprisingly a lot of similarities. I could go on about more things but I'll leave it there for now.

The type of sovereignty that Quebec almost voted for in 1995 wasn't very realistic. It would take a very long time to actually implement and there would be complicated negotiations to the point that Quebecers would likely not want to continue. Indigenous affairs, land claims and rights would overload the courts alone. And it wouldn't be cheap.

A lot of people don't know that a lot of unprocessed minerals and logs are transported to Quebec to be processed. Ontario allows it but Quebec generally doesn't allow theirs to go to Ontario. So that would mean many Quebecers would be out of work. Ontario law states that raw resources from Ontario have to be processed in Canada. So it would mean that provinces would have to change their laws to keep the status quo in many cases. Would they be willing to do that?

There are many other things that could cause negative consequences in the event of attempting separation. That is why the CAQ is taking an approach that supports nationalism but not sovereignty and not at the expense of the economy and probably why the CAQ has won the last two elections.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It was not always the case, but Anglo-Canadians all know poutine at this point.

Because it became popular in the United States...

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Quebec is probably the province that the most English Canadians have driven across by car.

I think you're right about that. Especially if you mean taking the main route of the Trans Canada and heading to New Brunswick. It's really not that long of a drive unlike in Ontario where Hwy 17 takes much longer and many people fly instead.

When I have driven to the Atlantic provinces, I've gone either by Chibougamau and Saguenay then taken a ferry or go by the Laurentians and bypass Montreal to the North and cross the St. Lawrence in Quebec City.

One thing I know is that is a lot of Quebecers use Hwy 101 in Ontario going through Timmins on their way to Western Canada. It's a much nicer drive than taking Hwy 11 because there aren't so many transport trucks and you get great Lake Superior scenery.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Quebec is probably the province that the most English Canadians have driven across by car.

Yep. It's logical, too: Quebec is right between Southern Ontario and Atlantic Anglo Canada -- the two poles of Anglo Eastern Canada.

New Brisavoine's question would have been better phrased "out of all the Anglo-Canadians who drive through Quebec, how many actually explore it rather than just drive straight through?" (Some, like MonctonRad, even make sure they fill up the tank in Edmundston or Cornwall just to be able to brag that they never even left the freeway while within Quebec! )

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I think you're right about that. Especially if you mean taking the main route of the Trans Canada and heading to New Brunswick. It's really not that long of a drive unlike in Ontario where Hwy 17 takes much longer and many people fly instead.

When I have driven to the Atlantic provinces, I've gone either by Chibougamau and Saguenay then taken a ferry or go by the Laurentians and bypass Montreal to the North and cross the St. Lawrence in Quebec City.

One thing I know is that is a lot of Quebecers use Hwy 101 in Ontario going through Timmins on their way to Western Canada. It's a much nicer drive than taking Hwy 11 because there aren't so many transport trucks and you get great Lake Superior scenery.

I sampled both on my way to and from Vancouver, and while I don't regret checking out the Lake Superior scenery once in my life, I have my answer on which one is the best route: 11, not 17.

[lio45]

My greatgrandpa grew up in a France-without-Alsace. Don't think it changed much in his life. Quebec leaving Canada would be a lot more life-altering. First off, Anglo-Canada without Quebec would be geographically a mess. Southern Ontario would be landlocked by Quebec. Atlantic Canada would be isolated. The capital would be on the edge of the country (not critical, but still really weird).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

My greatgrandpa grew up in a France-without-Alsace. Don't think it changed much in his life. Quebec leaving Canada would be a lot more life-altering. First off, Anglo-Canada without Quebec would be geographically a mess. Southern Ontario would be landlocked by Quebec. Atlantic Canada would be isolated. The capital would be on the edge of the country (not critical, but still really weird).

Like Brazzaville and Kinshasa.