YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[Denscity]

Good question.

[hehehe]

Originally Posted by wabooba

With Russian airspace closing, what route would AI take for a YVR - DEL flight?

Sorry, what I meant was not airspace closure but Canadian planes not being allowed into Russian airspace, whereas Indian aircraft can fly through Russian airspace, and hence the advantage.

[wabooba]

Originally Posted by hehehe

Sorry, what I meant was not airspace closure but Canadian planes not being allowed into Russian airspace, whereas Indian aircraft can fly through Russian airspace, and hence the advantage.

Thank you for the clarification on that.

[Johnny Aussie]

I know next summer is a long way off but YVR’s European network currently showing 91 weekly flights
Also noting the BA bump in frequencies is adding ~ 600-800 weekly seats
YVR loses first class but that’s no big deal in my opinion

As of today:

AC LHR 14 weekly
AC FRA 7 weekly
AC DUB 4 weekly
AC ZRH 3 weekly
LH FRA 7 weekly
LH MUC 7 weekly
BA LHR 7 weekly
BA LGW 6 weekly
KL AMS 7 weekly
AF CDG 7 weekly
WS LGW 7 weekly
DE FRA 5 weekly
FI KEF 4 weekly
TK IST 3 weekly
WK ZRH 3 weekly

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

Also noting the BA bump in frequencies is adding ~ 600-800 weekly seats
YVR loses first class but that’s no big deal in my opinion

More like YVR loses first class AND ~ 200 seats a day to LHR, whereas all the gains are to LGW.

But I love your rose-colored glasses.

Bottom of the line is, BA has been cutting capacity to Canada out of LHR for a while now.

Downgrading YYZ and YUL from 747/772 to 787.
Cancelling YYC
Downgrading YVR from 12x weekly B744 to daily A380, down to a daily 772 to LHR.

Meanwhile, they've been launching a myriad of secondary destinations in the US. PIT/MSY/BNA/AUS. Heck they even tried CHS.....

WS entering the fray to London, as well as all the non stops from Canada to South Asia, Eastern Europe and the middle east seem to be eating away at BA's profits out of Canada. Yields aren't that high, hence the seat reductions to LHR and the use of higher density 772s (~330 seats) to LGW.

[zahav]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

More like YVR loses first class AND ~ 200 seats a day to LHR, whereas all the gains are to LGW.

But I love your rose-colored glasses.

Bottom of the line is, BA has been cutting capacity to Canada out of LHR for a while now.

Downgrading YYZ and YUL from 747/772 to 787.
Cancelling YYC
Downgrading YVR from 12x weekly B744 to daily A380, down to a daily 772 to LHR.

Meanwhile, they've been launching a myriad of secondary destinations in the US. PIT/MSY/BNA/AUS. Heck they even tried CHS.....

WS entering the fray to London, as well as all the non stops from Canada to South Asia, Eastern Europe and the middle east seem to be eating away at BA's profits out of Canada. Yields aren't that high, hence the seat reductions to LHR and the use of higher density 772s (~330 seats) to LGW.

Comparatively, adding LGW from YVR is still some form of confidence, they could've just downgraded to the 777 and called it a day. But they added flights back, albeit to LGW. But you are right about them feeling the competition from other carriers. They launch smaller US routes because they can be a bigger fish in a small pond, and really get all the traffic. But Canada and the UK have a very special shared history, and routes to London have always been huge. So the main cities have always had service from multiple carriers. But the entrance of other airlines skimming connecting pax certainly would have an effect. I never really realized how they pared service to YYC, YYZ, and YUL (YYZ especially, they have more seats from YVR than YYZ in the summer, not sure that's ever happened?). I suppose AC can really muscle out competitors from YYZ, and WS can do the same at YYC. But YVR and YUL seem to be in a good middle ground where the largest carrier isn't so strong that it bullies others off routes. Sorry haven't slept much so I might be reading too much into it, but had no idea BA had gone down to just 2x daily 787s from YYZ, meanwhile they have essentially 2x daily 777s from YVR

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by zahav

Comparatively, adding LGW from YVR is still some form of confidence, they could've just downgraded to the 777 and called it a day. But they added flights back, albeit to LGW. But you are right about them feeling the competition from other carriers. They launch smaller US routes because they can be a bigger fish in a small pond, and really get all the traffic. But Canada and the UK have a very special shared history, and routes to London have always been huge. So the main cities have always had service from multiple carriers. But the entrance of other airlines skimming connecting pax certainly would have an effect. I never really realized how they pared service to YYC, YYZ, and YUL (YYZ especially, they have more seats from YVR than YYZ in the summer, not sure that's ever happened?). I suppose AC can really muscle out competitors from YYZ, and WS can do the same at YYC. But YVR and YUL seem to be in a good middle ground where the largest carrier isn't so strong that it bullies others off routes. Sorry haven't slept much so I might be reading too much into it, but had no idea BA had gone down to just 2x daily 787s from YYZ, meanwhile they have essentially 2x daily 777s from YVR

Definitely a vote of confidence.
Looking at it from a Western Canada perspective, like I said, they could have returned to YYC but instead decided to add more capacity AND start a new market from here. Compared to reductions elsewhere as well this is good.
And being the most geographically disadvantaged city in Canada when it comes to Europe just look at that list.
As for the rest of Western Canada YYC has Westjet going for it of course. But other than that AC has been stagnant forever. KLM is the only other carrier offering year-round service (from YYC and YEG). Eurowings and Edelweiss, both heavily leisure, are flying seasonal summer. And that’s it.

[hehehe]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

Definitely a vote of confidence.
Looking at it from a Western Canada perspective, like I said, they could have returned to YYC but instead decided to add more capacity AND start a new market from here. Compared to reductions elsewhere as well this is good.
And being the most geographically disadvantaged city in Canada when it comes to Europe just look at that list.
As for the rest of Western Canada YYC has Westjet going for it of course. But other than that AC has been stagnant forever. KLM is the only other carrier offering year-round service (from YYC and YEG). Eurowings and Edelweiss, both heavily leisure, are flying seasonal summer. And that’s it.

WS daily YYC-LHR pretty much sealed the deal for BA (for now at least). YVR is a huge international market, especially compared to YYC. YYC definitely punches above its weight by a lot, thanks to WS so considering YYC's size, they're doing really well.

The decreases from BA at YVR are pretty much offset by TK, AI etc. At the end of the day there's only so much demand out of YVR.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by hehehe

WS daily YYC-LHR pretty much sealed the deal for BA (for now at least). YVR is a huge international market, especially compared to YYC. YYC definitely punches above its weight by a lot, thanks to WS so considering YYC's size, they're doing really well.

The decreases from BA at YVR are pretty much offset by TK, AI etc. At the end of the day there's only so much demand out of YVR.

Yes, YYC is doing fine. But much more dependent on connections to fill those WS non-premium heavy Dreamliners. WS is definitely a deterrent more than ever for gaining foreign carriers. It happened years ago of course but when LH pulled YYC they added YVR-MUC. Now returned to YYC via Eurowings an indication also on a much less premium market.

There are no BA decreases at YVR though. Next summer BA is increasing capacity and frequencies.

[hehehe]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

Yes, YYC is doing fine. But much more dependent on connections to fill those WS non-premium heavy Dreamliners. WS is definitely a deterrent more than ever for gaining foreign carriers. It happened years ago of course but when LH pulled YYC they added YVR-MUC. Now returned to YYC via Eurowings an indication also on a much less premium market.

There are no BA decreases at YVR though. Next summer BA is increasing capacity and frequencies.

Daily A380 or 12x weekly 744 to daily LHR and 6x weekly LGW on the 77 is somewhat of a capacity decrease, is it not?

And you're right that YYC is very connection dependant and non-premium with few foreign airlines. But that also means getting flights to FCO, DUB, CDG etc. And a small market like YYC can only have so much I guess.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by hehehe

Daily A380 or 12x weekly 744 to daily LHR and 6x weekly LGW on the 77 is somewhat of a capacity decrease, is it not?

Nope.
BA has been flying the A380 since 2016.
A daily A380 is way fewer seats than 13 weekly 777s.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

More like YVR loses first class AND ~ 200 seats a day to LHR, whereas all the gains are to LGW.

But I love your rose-colored glasses.

Bottom of the line is, BA has been cutting capacity to Canada out of LHR for a while now.

Downgrading YYZ and YUL from 747/772 to 787.
Cancelling YYC
Downgrading YVR from 12x weekly B744 to daily A380, down to a daily 772 to LHR.

Meanwhile, they've been launching a myriad of secondary destinations in the US. PIT/MSY/BNA/AUS. Heck they even tried CHS.....

WS entering the fray to London, as well as all the non stops from Canada to South Asia, Eastern Europe and the middle east seem to be eating away at BA's profits out of Canada. Yields aren't that high, hence the seat reductions to LHR and the use of higher density 772s (~330 seats) to LGW.

How many pax actually pay for 1st class YVR-LHR versus using points? Vancouver is largely a tourism destination for Brits. LGW makes more sense for that market as the landing fees are much lower than Heathrow as are the fees pax have to pay. Keeps the purchase price low.

[hehehe]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

Nope.
BA has been flying the A380 since 2016.
A daily A380 is way fewer seats than 13 weekly 777s.

My bad. I redid the math and I have no idea how I got the capacity decrease lol. In that case isn't this only good news? Or what's the problem with it? (not that you brought that up but the other posters did)

[Calfan12]

AIR FRANCE NOV 2022 VANCOUVER AIRCRAFT CHANGES

Air France during the month of November 2022 is adjusting operational aircraft on Paris CDG – Vancouver route, scheduled 3 times weekly during Northern winter season. From 09NOV22 to 27NOV22, Boeing 777-200ER aircraft is assigned on this route, replacing 787-9 Dreamliner.

AF374 CDG1010 – 1120YVR 772 357
AF379 YVR1330 – 0810+1CDG 772 357

https://www.aeroroutes.com/eng/220829-afnov22yvr

[whatnext]

In case anyone wants to see the security screening lineup at YVR thanks to the CATSA agent "sick out" yesterday. Sure to generate great word of mouth for Vancouver as a tourist destination:

https://twitter.com/TravisPrasad/status/1563966084763766784

[casper]

Originally Posted by whatnext

In case anyone wants to see the security screening lineup at YVR thanks to the CATSA agent "sick out" yesterday. Sure to generate great word of mouth for Vancouver as a tourist destination:

https://twitter.com/TravisPrasad/status/1563966084763766784

Unacceptable. CATSA needs to put out a tender for a replacement contractor. The current one should be allowed to bid, but needs to explain what steps they have put in place to address this behaviour.

There should be zero tolerance for this type of behavior.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

More like YVR loses first class AND ~ 200 seats a day to LHR, whereas all the gains are to LGW.

But I love your rose-colored glasses.

Bottom of the line is, BA has been cutting capacity to Canada out of LHR for a while now.

Downgrading YYZ and YUL from 747/772 to 787.
Cancelling YYC
Downgrading YVR from 12x weekly B744 to daily A380, down to a daily 772 to LHR.

Meanwhile, they've been launching a myriad of secondary destinations in the US. PIT/MSY/BNA/AUS. Heck they even tried CHS.....

WS entering the fray to London, as well as all the non stops from Canada to South Asia, Eastern Europe and the middle east seem to be eating away at BA's profits out of Canada. Yields aren't that high, hence the seat reductions to LHR and the use of higher density 772s (~330 seats) to LGW.

If he's wearing rose coloured glasses you're wearing black coloured glasses.

It's a total net gain of seats either way to London, whether we keep the 380 service or go to all 777. A daily to LHR and a daily to LGW actually has some pros as well since they serve different ends of London and different customers, with different connection options.

Would 2x to LHR be better? I guess? For prestige? But I don't really see what else for. There will be 3 flights per day to LHR next summer as is, so WGAF? Plenty of 'prestige' to go around.

Assuming all 777 configuration on BA there is a 5.5% in seats to London next year compared to 2019, and a 14% increase over S22, so not really a bad news story all in, unless your entire reason for posting is to trash talk other airports...

[thenoflyzone]

Dude. Going from 12x weekly B744 pre-2016 to 13x weekly B772 is a downgrade in seats. Period.

Forget about LHR vs LGW for a minute. In seats alone, it's a downgrade.

Now, add in the fact most of those seats are now to LGW, and it's an even worse downgrade. You can hate what I'm saying all you want, doesn't make it untrue.

The A380 in between 2016 and 2022 was fun while it lasted I'm sure, but overall, in a 6 year timeframe, BA has downgraded service to YVR. End of story.

Color your glasses whichever way you want.

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

A daily to LHR and a daily to LGW actually has some pros as well since they serve different ends of London and different customers, with different connection options.

You have very limited connection options at LGW on BA.

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Would 2x to LHR be better? I guess?

You guess? lol. Of course it's better.

[nname]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

Dude. Going from 12x weekly B744 pre-2016 to 13x weekly B772 is a downgrade in seats. Period.

Depends.

I don't know which version of 744 BA sent before switching to A380, but for the 772 without first class, the "Heathrow" version have almost the same number of seat as the lower-density 744, while the "Gatwick" version have the same number of seats as higher density 744. The only thing difference is more Y and less F and maybe C.

But there are definitely much more seats combined compared to single daily 388.

Nowadays airlines pack more people onto their 777 and even 787 than they ever did with their 747...

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by nname

Depends.

I don't know which version of 744 BA sent before switching to A380, but for the 772 without first class, the "Heathrow" version have almost the same number of seat as the lower-density 744, while the "Gatwick" version have the same number of seats as higher density 744. The only thing difference is more Y and less F and maybe C.

But there are definitely much more seats combined compared to single daily 388.

Nowadays airlines pack more people onto their 777 and even 787 than they ever did with their 747...

Exactly.. The downgrade in seats happened between 2015 and 2016.

Since 2016, YVR has been served by a single daily A380.

So fast forward to summer 2023. There will be a large increase in seats compared to summer 2016 (7 years ago!) and every year since then.

The pattern in Western Canada over the last few years just shows how YVR is doing compared to other cities when it comes to Europe

BA pulls out of YYC but is adding significant frequencies and capacity at YVR
FI returns to YVR but not YEG
DE returns to YVR but not YYC and DE is increasing flights/capacity at YVR next summer as well (next summer YEG does get 2 weekly flights though)
LH maintains double daily YVR flights yet only recently returns to YYC with their heavily leisure arm Eurowings Discover (and limited seasonal at that only)
TK starts flights to YVR
WS maintains daily 789 flights to LGW despite the emphasis at YYC (which is really only 20 weekly European flights anyway) and doesn’t restart YEG
AC has added destinations and capacity at YVR while ending all YEG flights and holding YYC stagnant
KL, AF and WK all holding their own as well - AF indicating another crack at going daily next summer as well

The above should tell you something