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  #2821  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2021, 12:06 AM
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I'm sorry to say I've only read snippets of your conversation, so I've probably missed a few things. If so, I apologize.

The "blue line" was actually something GO looked at for Niagara Service. It was ruled out in favour of CN's corridor along the south lakeshore (and rightly so, given the greater population along that route).

I think the proposed elevated light rail system that Ontario wanted to "demonstrate" in Hamilton in the early 80s (at NO COST to the city; that's twice now in 40 years... do we go for three?) was a HUGE missed opportunity. It was killed by local opposition on the mountain and a lackluster political will that didn't consider the long term. Very unfortunate. It could have sowed the seed of something akin to Vancouver's current system; I have little doubt there would have been a good case to extend it across both the lower city and the upper.

Bear in mind that many of these freight lines -- some of which could very well host some kind of successful passenger service -- are tightly held by CN and CP. The ones they deem expendable have been ripped up (e.g., the CN line that's now the Escarpment Rail Trail, the CP line through the Dundas Valley that is similarly a trail). The ones they still hold dear won't be given up, even from their 'cold dead hands'




Here's a good history of rail transit in Hamilton: https://www.raisethehammer.org/article/3747/light_rail_transit_in_hamilton:_the_story_so_far
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  #2822  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2021, 12:09 PM
Beedok Beedok is offline
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I do think the skytrain technology probably would have been overkill in the 80s. Like, nice to have, but would have run at a tiny fraction of the capacity.
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  #2823  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2021, 4:19 PM
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I do think the skytrain technology probably would have been overkill in the 80s. Like, nice to have, but would have run at a tiny fraction of the capacity.
Could it have spurred investment in development that would see a higher population in Hamilton?
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  #2824  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2021, 5:27 PM
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I don’t think one transit line would change the development of the city that much. GO’s ALRT plan probably would have made a difference, especially if both got built. But just transit in Hamilton probably would have more fed intensification than total growth?

Lots of US cities saw rail transit built in the 70s and 80s that had no real impact on their stagnation. Baltimore, Buffalo, etc.
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  #2825  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2021, 6:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Beedok View Post
I do think the skytrain technology probably would have been overkill in the 80s. Like, nice to have, but would have run at a tiny fraction of the capacity.
It may have taken time to build up, but perhaps the ease of commuting downtown would have meant that the office market didn't dry up the way it did, and more retail/commercial activity would have remained.

I think the real opportunity would have been to extend the system -- east-west across the lower city, and similarly along Mohawk or Fennel in the upper and perhaps southward (though the urban area basically ended at Lime Ridge Rd. back then)

I also don't think you can really compare Hamilton with those US examples. Yes, we're a "rust belt" town that fell hard when industry died out, but we didn't have the same socio-economic drivers of central city decline (or at least only at a fraction of the scale).
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  #2826  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2021, 10:46 PM
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I personally feel like that was more of a dodged bullet than a missed opportunity. Look at what happened when the TTC let the SRT go like it did. The Vancouver Skytrain was only as successful as it was because they constantly reinvested in it, expanded it and developed urban neighborhoods around it. I'm not convinced that Hamilton would have done the same.
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  #2827  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2021, 1:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beedok View Post
I don’t think one transit line would change the development of the city that much. GO’s ALRT plan probably would have made a difference, especially if both got built. But just transit in Hamilton probably would have more fed intensification than total growth?

Lots of US cities saw rail transit built in the 70s and 80s that had no real impact on their stagnation. Baltimore, Buffalo, etc.
If we assume that the lines would have been expanded, it could be assumed we would be seeing the full BLAST network, or at least the busier corridors in operation today. The problem is, we don't know what it would have caused.

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Originally Posted by matt602 View Post
I personally feel like that was more of a dodged bullet than a missed opportunity. Look at what happened when the TTC let the SRT go like it did. The Vancouver Skytrain was only as successful as it was because they constantly reinvested in it, expanded it and developed urban neighborhoods around it. I'm not convinced that Hamilton would have done the same.
The SRT was a failure simply because it was ignored. Had it been updated, or expanded it would not be replaced due to becoming obsolete by lack of maintenance.
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  #2828  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2021, 1:12 PM
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
The SRT was a failure simply because it was ignored. Had it been updated, or expanded it would not be replaced due to becoming obsolete by lack of maintenance.
I think this is important. In other cities without a subway network, an SRT-type line probably would have been expanded and upgraded over time. SRT was sort of left hanging out there by itself for far too long. What if it had been extended westward along (or under) Eglinton?

It was probably the wrong choice from the beginning, given Scarborough's urban fabric of the time. But more could have been done with it.

In most cities in Canada, higher-order transit expansion only seems to happen in big chunks -- a new line here or there, a long extension. Incremental expansions aren't as sexy, but over time they add up and I think they're more budget-friendly too. In some cases a new and very big "generational" transit project is a necessity, but I think a lot can be accomplished adding a kilometre here or there more frequently.
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  #2829  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2021, 2:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ScreamingViking View Post
I think this is important. In other cities without a subway network, an SRT-type line probably would have been expanded and upgraded over time. SRT was sort of left hanging out there by itself for far too long. What if it had been extended westward along (or under) Eglinton?

It was probably the wrong choice from the beginning, given Scarborough's urban fabric of the time. But more could have been done with it.

In most cities in Canada, higher-order transit expansion only seems to happen in big chunks -- a new line here or there, a long extension. Incremental expansions aren't as sexy, but over time they add up and I think they're more budget-friendly too. In some cases a new and very big "generational" transit project is a necessity, but I think a lot can be accomplished adding a kilometre here or there more frequently.
This is why SRT is a failure, but Skytrain is a success. Skytrain started out as a 1km section and was expanded from there to ~80km.
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  #2830  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2021, 2:42 PM
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I will say that I don’t think it would have been a total failure (or as empty as US equivalents), and might have helped the downtown out a bit. I just don’t think it would have changed the direction of the city in general with declining heavy industry and companies moving to cheaper locations in Burlington and such. The main difference would probably be a more centralized city, with a definitely nicer downtown, while Barton or Kenilworth would likely look a bit worse, and Concession less commercial as well, but likely not any rougher.
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  #2831  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2021, 8:42 PM
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One thing people haven't mentioned is the Skytrain was built for Expo '86 in practicality and it's growth was facilitated to eliminate massive amounts of car commuting into downtown. The original 1km line wasn't really useable, it was demonstrative. When the line opened ahead of Expo, it was 20KM long, ending in New Westminster. The first ten years and then the second boom in the early 2000s leading up to the Olympics were it's big two construction booms. There hasn't been much since, but there's always rumours of new additions.

If you think the QEW and 401, etc., are bad, then let me tell you Vancouver's traffic is a nightmare when you factor in multiple bridges and the fact downtown is small relative to Toronto. Vancouver was pretty ahead of the curve when it when it came to light rail or monorail style transit.

Every time I go home, it's always nice to hop on the ST and hear that recorded lady tell you the stop.
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  #2832  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2021, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by craftbeerdad View Post
One thing people haven't mentioned is the Skytrain was built for Expo '86 in practicality and it's growth was facilitated to eliminate massive amounts of car commuting into downtown. The original 1km line wasn't really useable, it was demonstrative. When the line opened ahead of Expo, it was 20KM long, ending in New Westminster. The first ten years and then the second boom in the early 2000s leading up to the Olympics were it's big two construction booms. There hasn't been much since, but there's always rumours of new additions.

If you think the QEW and 401, etc., are bad, then let me tell you Vancouver's traffic is a nightmare when you factor in multiple bridges and the fact downtown is small relative to Toronto. Vancouver was pretty ahead of the curve when it when it came to light rail or monorail style transit.

Every time I go home, it's always nice to hop on the ST and hear that recorded lady tell you the stop.
The traffic is horrendous in the Lower Mainland. If they want to widen any of the highways in the CBD they would need to do a lot of expropriation.

I wonder if instead of the SRT, they instead did the first line in Ontario in Hamilton. The SRT doesn't make much sense. From the start, it should have been a subway extension. Having a new system somewhere else, like Hamilton, or even Ottawa may have seen it successful.
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  #2833  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2021, 12:24 AM
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Metrolinx to level 12 more buildings along LRT route in Hamilton

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/metrolinx-lrt-demolition-1.6207825
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  #2834  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2021, 8:06 PM
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Final reminder: Hamilton overwhelmingly supports light rail transit (LRT)

https://www.insauga.com/final-reminder-hamilton-overwhelmingly-supports-light-rail-transit-lrt/
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  #2835  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2021, 8:36 PM
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I appreciate how fed-up the author sounds having to write this, it's really relatable
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  #2836  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2021, 1:45 AM
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Originally Posted by ShavedParmesanCheese View Post
I appreciate how fed-up the author sounds having to write this, it's really relatable
The best line in this whole article is the last sentence. Too Funny.
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  #2837  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2021, 11:54 AM
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And of course the one comment on the article right now is someone opposing it claiming there was never a chance for public input prior to the announcement of funding (lol).
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  #2838  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2021, 7:10 PM
mikevbar1 mikevbar1 is offline
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Well, I come back from a busy week to bring a metro map that exists solely on existing track/approved projects (Just the LRT, lol). I used Brand new Subway to make it, putting a small portion of my time actually deciding what would make sense for stop locations. I am more than open to adjustments to this map as time goes on of course because stops are something that can be hotly debated, especially when this is all just fantasy. Anywho, onto the map.



It includes the aptly named "blue line", running across the escarpment and connecting at major streets and points of interest. I figured cutting it shorter than some of my earlier maps would make sense since I didn't really see there being all too much demand at the furthest parts of Stoney Creek, at least not yet. The other end of the Blue line goes into Dundas, and this is more tentative because there is no precedent for service along this section historically speaking, so I figure this would probably be a later extension.

The Orange line is now closer to Gold, and I still think this is the line with the most potential. While perhaps not super necessary right now, it will reintroduce growth to the parts of Hamilton that already have the capacity for plenty more density, whether it be new industrial, commercial, office space or denser residential. I imagine the parking lot of Barton centre getting filled in with condos, for instance.

The pink line is a loop which would run around what could probably be considered a new 'downtown boundary', what with the LRT, stadium, Gage park and much of the industrial access available from its stations. I anticipate this being the busiest line by far simply because it offers a complete loop to all of the most important locations in the city. The only reason I haven't prioritized it is because it would absolutely require new track and a regrade for its track near Gage/connection to the orange mainline, and so would have to be a future expansion (albeit easily justifiable within the scope of the project).

To address the issues of widening the Hunter st. tunnel to Centre GO, I obviously created a new central station/terminal at the current Fortinos strip. Barring traffic issues, this is a perfect location for a modern downtown-oriented Hamilton to place a central station in such a network, since track is already present and the lot is undeniably underutilized. Furthermore, GO service can be diverted from the other two stations and kept in one sleek new station that ironically will probably offer reduced commute times; I imagine ~5 minutes. Because it will be a dedicated commercial-use station, CN can continue running trains through the tunnel and we can operate our 'metros' or whatever they might be without issue since GO trains will now be completely off of Hamilton track for the most part. Diverting off of West Harbour might seem ludicrous, but reconfiguring it (and I suppose Confederation, when it's complete) into 'metro' stations, will again result in a minimal increase in net traffic on these tracks. The location also obviously offers direct LRT access, not needing a protected walkway across 3 blocks to get inside the new station. This new station will therefore ideally host most if not all of Hamilton's GO service, with the new rapid transit lines bringing people to the station. I do imagine GO would want to continue operations in at LEAST Confederation GO, since geographically it is quite farther than either West Harbour or Centre GO is from this new central station. Not quite sure how that would work yet, so if anyone has any ideas I'd love to hear them.

I'll include an image with/without the A-line LRT, because at this point that's at least a decade off if it ever happens at all. Being an ideal N/S connector though I did include it in a second version of the map. A third version of the map would hypothetically include a host of alternative transit modes not explored in BLAST but definetly discussed here, like Funiculars or ski-lift carriages. As for the location of those, I'll expand on that in another post as I am short on time and haven't even answered my PMs yet. This didn't actually take all too long, just alot of consideration. Cheers!

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  #2839  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2021, 7:51 PM
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Speaking of LRT and maps, I made this if you want to be able to see LRT in Hamilton against your favourite Google Map (still a work in progress):

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/1/viewer...24539865455123%2C-79.84256615000004&z=13

Mikeybar, how do you make those maps? I've been looking for an accessible map maker, I'm not an urban planner and have used GIS programs in the past, but I need something simple so I don't have to relearn and continue to learn the ins and outs of a complex map maker.
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  #2840  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2021, 8:41 PM
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[QUOTE=mikevbar1;9424947]
The other end of the Blue line goes into Dundas, and this is more tentative because there is no precedent for service along this section historically speaking, so I figure this would probably be a later extension.

Not to be a Debbie Downer but building a rapid transit line into Dundas beyond extending the new LRT to University Plaza is frankly crazy even for fantasy map. The demand is simply not there. There is not even demand to have a bus run every 15 minutes straight down King Street to the new terminal at Mac even though they probably should. This section of the city has under 10,000 people, a high number (over 30%) who are seniors. There is no actual space for stations of any type, access is terrible (located partially up the escarpment), coordinating transit right-of-ways through the Bayview Junction is a non starter for the railways. There is also very little redevelopment potential in this part of the city plus very firm urban growth boundaries surrounded by conservation areas and farmland.

Extending the B line to University Plaza though is almost a no brainer if thousands of units, most of them geared towards students or affordable housing are constructed within a five minute walk of potential stations. Proper local bus routes can feed this terminal from anywhere in Dundas.

Remember that Dundas is a fractured community due to a lack of through streets between the various parts like Pleasant Valley, University Gardens, Highland Park, the Yorkview area, and the old town. It can take between 8-15 minutes to drive between these areas yet at the same time a driver can be at James and Main in 15 minutes from anywhere in Dundas.
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