O-Train Line 1/3 [ Stage 2 | East Extension | Blair to Trim] | U/C

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by RogueNacho

"If you build it, they will come". Yes, a lot of these stations/areas will have poor walkability to start off with, but once the infrastructure is in place then TOD should be expected follow not too long after. St. Joseph Blvd., as well as some areas around Place D'Orleans should become very attractive for future TOD.

St. Joseph is too far. Anything beyond Place d'Orleans is too far. The only hope is to redevelop the shopping centre itself or the Park n Ride. Of course, eliminating Park n Rides just makes it more difficult to use the Confederation Line when local bus routes have lousy frequency.

Building LRT is not a guarantee of increased ridership. That depends on delivering better service to the average resident. As we have seen with Phase 1, better service is not guaranteed, at least so far.

[J.OT13]

I don't know what's the City's problem with parking garages. Those massive surface park and rides at Trim, Place d'Orleans and Eagleson could easily be condensed into a multi level parking structure build by the private sector (in exchange for a cheaper price on the rest of the property).

[Stacmon]

Originally Posted by Dzingle Bells

Wow these are really not going to be walkable stations. Crazy amount of money to build these and so much of the TOD potential is going to be taken up by highways and interchanges.

I have seen several comments including this one about stations not being walkable along Stage 2 East. I used to live on Jasmine Crescent just between Blair and the future Montreal stations and while Blair wasn't adjacent, having the station about a 20 minute walk away made that an option when I wanted to control my destiny and not rely on buses that weren't coming frequently or didn't have great schedule reliability (like the 12 starting at Blair).

Living in Orleans now, I am closest to Convent Glen station and can definitely attest that it is walkable for many people living in the area. I am pretty far north along Orleans Boulevard too and at my walking speed, it takes about 12 minutes to get to the future station (a bit reason we chose to move here). The area here also has some streets with quite a bit of density, either due to smaller homes closer together or the stacked town homes we live in. Even it they skipped Convent Glen like they did Tenth Line, my next closest alternative would be Jeanne D'Arc Station and that would be a 20 minute walk, like my old Blair situation. The 12 minute walk definitely is my strong preference, because it will make me feel much more connected to the line and therefore the city/downtown, but 20 minutes would have still made walking a possibility.

Finally in terms of the line's proximity to St. Joseph (our historic main street and small business central), I saw a number of comments about the line being too far, but I disagree. St. Joseph is just South of the highway, and getting to the intersection from any of the stations would take about 10 minutes or less. Because or the time it would take to travel East or West down St. Joseph to get to your destination though, it would make sense from someone travelling on the O-train to get off at the stop that best aligns with their destination to save on the walk.

I definitely see a lot of development possibilities along St. Joseph, near Place D'Orleans Mall and in the East near Trim as well, but I wanted to emphasize in particular that I think the current community and businesses of Orleans will actually be pretty well served by the expanded line!

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Stacmon

Finally in terms of the line's proximity to St. Joseph (our historic main street and small business central), I saw a number of comments about the line being too far, but I disagree. St. Joseph is just South of the highway, and getting to the intersection from any of the stations would take about 10 minutes or less. Because or the time it would take to travel East or West down St. Joseph to get to your destination though, it would make sense from someone travelling on the O-train to get off at the stop that best aligns with their destination to save on the walk.

I definitely see a lot of development possibilities along St. Joseph, near Place D'Orleans Mall and in the East near Trim as well, but I wanted to emphasize in particular that I think the current community and businesses of Orleans will actually be pretty well served by the expanded line!

You're right. St. Joseph is not much further from the future O-Train stations as Wellington West and Richmond are from the Scott Street trench. The density of stations is quite similar as well. The City just needs to do a better job to urbanize Jeanne d'Arc and Orleans Boulevard between the highway and St. Joseph, and Place needs to redevelop some of their parking lots with that same goal.

[lrt's friend]

Having to walk 10 minutes to reach the street (but not your destination) across a massive parking lot or along a featureless very car-oriented street is not my idea of convenient access. Sure, some people will do it, but it is not the recipe for TOD.

I don't get this whole idea that 15 or 20 minute walks should be good enough for transit riders. We get +30 and -30 temperatures, and the odd thunderstorm or blizzard in this city.

[OTSkyline]

At it's "widest", the gap between St-Joseph and where the LRT will be (on the west side of Orleans where the roundabout is at Jeanne D'Arc and St-Joseph) is 750m, meaning most new residential developments would be less than 1km away from the Confed line and less than 10min away from rapid-transit to downtown or west end.

I don't think this is something outrageous for transit users, especially for fast, reliable transit. Sure one could walk 2min to the closest bus stop, but if the bus only passes every 30-40min, often experiences weather delays or bunching, then the walk to the nearest LRT station should be a much better option. Also, if the City is serious about redeveloping St-Joseph, improving the pedestrian experience, sidewalks, active frontage, then the walk to transit should only improve going forward.

We need to get this idea out of our head that everyone should have LRT at their doorstep, it's not going to happen and it's not realistic.

On the other hand, neither was the City's claim to fame that "X amount of the population would live within 5km of the Confederation line.. that's too far and doesn't mean squat for most people).

[phil235]

I see both sides of this. The actual distance is reasonable, but the walking/biking environment is terrible and will take a lot of investment to make it decent. That said, there is ample opportunity for infill, so hopefully the investment does come.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I don't know what's the City's problem with parking garages. Those massive surface park and rides at Trim, Place d'Orleans and Eagleson could easily be condensed into a multi level parking structure build by the private sector (in exchange for a cheaper price on the rest of the property).

Parking garages cost a whole lot more per parking space than surface parking. That is why parking garages or underground parking is mostly restricted to highly urbanized locations where land value is also much higher.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

At it's "widest", the gap between St-Joseph and where the LRT will be (on the west side of Orleans where the roundabout is at Jeanne D'Arc and St-Joseph) is 750m, meaning most new residential developments would be less than 1km away from the Confed line and less than 10min away from rapid-transit to downtown or west end.

I don't think this is something outrageous for transit users, especially for fast, reliable transit. Sure one could walk 2min to the closest bus stop, but if the bus only passes every 30-40min, often experiences weather delays or bunching, then the walk to the nearest LRT station should be a much better option. Also, if the City is serious about redeveloping St-Joseph, improving the pedestrian experience, sidewalks, active frontage, then the walk to transit should only improve going forward.

We need to get this idea out of our head that everyone should have LRT at their doorstep, it's not going to happen and it's not realistic.

On the other hand, neither was the City's claim to fame that "X amount of the population would live within 5km of the Confederation line.. that's too far and doesn't mean squat for most people).

I am a 20 minute walk from a direct bus to downtown. Do I ever do that? No. Why? The pedestrian environment is awful to get there and in bad weather, the distance is too far.

We obviously can't have LRT everywhere. Nobody is suggesting this, but the attitude in this city is that we can cut neighbourhood bus service as we roll out LRT.

How are we to reduce car dependence if transit involves lengthy walks to get anywhere?

It is OK to have a bit of a walk when your commute is half way across the city, but reducing car dependence involves allowing shorter trips to be accomplished efficiently by transit as well.

[Stacmon]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I am a 20 minute walk from a direct bus to downtown. Do I ever do that? No. Why? The pedestrian environment is awful to get there and in bad weather, the distance is too far.

We obviously can't have LRT everywhere. Nobody is suggesting this, but the attitude in this city is that we can cut neighbourhood bus service as we roll out LRT.

How are we to reduce car dependence if transit involves lengthy walks to get anywhere?

It is OK to have a bit of a walk when your commute is half way across the city, but reducing car dependence involves allowing shorter trips to be accomplished efficiently by transit as well.

I understand the frustration, and agree that 20 minutes is just over the edge of being a comfortable walk to a "local" stop, especially for more elderly residents or people with mobility challenges. For me the psychological limit tends to be 15 minutes to not even think about taking a connecting bus (even in Winter).

I also feel a bit different being within 20 minutes from a train station than a bus stop. Since the train line will cover so much of the city and its attractions in a few years, I would feel much better connected through my 12 minute walk to Convent Glen Station than I would knowing I would have to take a bus first just to get to the train, or to take two buses with an awkward connecting time to get to where I am trying to go in the city.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Parking garages cost a whole lot more per parking space than surface parking. That is why parking garages or underground parking is mostly restricted to highly urbanized locations where land value is also much higher.

Land value directly on the O-Train is quite high. I wouldn't suggest this for, say, Bowesville or Leitrim, but at Trim, Place d'Orleans and Eagleson, the City could easily re-zone for 30+ floors to get even more value out of that land.

Go Transit builds these massive parking garages in rural settings. We're one of the few big cities with none of our park and ride facilities build up instead of out. It's something we need to consider, even if that means starting to charge people a minimal amount.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

I don't know what's the City's problem with parking garages. Those massive surface park and rides at Trim, Place d'Orleans and Eagleson could easily be condensed into a multi level parking structure build by the private sector (in exchange for a cheaper price on the rest of the property).

They don't want to charge for it. That is why they are building parking as cheaply as possible. This is the kind of idiocy and ignorance that comes from a council that has to pander to suburbanites.

[SkeggsEggs]

Do any of those massive GO parking garages along the 401 charge?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Land value directly on the O-Train is quite high. I wouldn't suggest this for, say, Bowesville or Leitrim, but at Trim, Place d'Orleans and Eagleson, the City could easily re-zone for 30+ floors to get even more value out of that land.

What is the tallest building in Orleans (a serious question)? With a quick look on Google, I don't see anything taller than 3 or 4 floors. Do you really think a 30+ floor building could be built in Orleans without a revolt?

Besides the Trim and Place d'Orleans park and rides have already been built when the land was cheap. The city would need a compelling offer to tear them up to build a garage. I can only see it happening if they need more parking capacity, or a developer comes along and offers to give the city a big chunk of change for the extra land and build the garage for free.

Wrong thread for this, but Eagleson has some merit though. Kanata already has a significant amount of height, so you wouldn't get as many complaints. On top of that, the park and ride is on the wrong side of the highway for the Stage 3 station. Rather than spend all that money on building pedestrian overpasses to connect them to the station, they could instead build a parking garage at Terry Fox. Eagleson currently has 1,220 parking spaces and Terry Fox currently has 537, so a 4 level garage at Terry Fox should have over 2000 spaces, enough to replace Eagleson. Not only can the save money from not having to build the overpasses, but they can then sell the land for development. They could even require the developer to build a public overpass to serve the community.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by SkeggsEggs

Do any of those massive GO parking garages along the 401 charge?

GO parking is free. The only charge for reserved spots for commuters.

[SkeggsEggs]

Originally Posted by roger1818

What is the tallest building in Orleans (a serious question)? With a quick look on Google, I don't see anything taller than 3 or 4 floors. Do you really think a 30+ floor building could be built in Orleans without a revolt?

The proposal at 3030 St. Joseph Blvd was approved with it's 16 floors. https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=229878&page=6

But 30 seems optimistic

[SkeggsEggs]

Originally Posted by phil235

GO parking is free. The only charge for reserved spots for commuters.

Thanks! So similar to OC Transpo's Gold sign areas at some Park and Rides?

[phil235]

Originally Posted by SkeggsEggs

Thanks! So similar to OC Transpo's Gold sign areas at some Park and Rides?

I've never used an OC Transpo park and ride, so I don't know for sure, but it sounds similar.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by roger1818

What is the tallest building in Orleans (a serious question)? With a quick look on Google, I don't see anything taller than 3 or 4 floors. Do you really think a 30+ floor building could be built in Orleans without a revolt?

That would be the Pertie's Landing towers. Current tallest is 15, with towers up to 32 floors proposed. Trim is pretty disconnected from the rest of Orleans, and near Petrie, so I don't see any (or much) opposition. Place might be more challenging, but something akin to Agora might be better suited.

Wrong thread for this, but Eagleson has some merit though. Kanata already has a significant amount of height, so you wouldn't get as many complaints. On top of that, the park and ride is on the wrong side of the highway for the Stage 3 station. Rather than spend all that money on building pedestrian overpasses to connect them to the station, they could instead build a parking garage at Terry Fox. Eagleson currently has 1,220 parking spaces and Terry Fox currently has 537, so a 4 level garage at Terry Fox should have over 2000 spaces, enough to replace Eagleson. Not only can the save money from not having to build the overpasses, but they can then sell the land for development. They could even require the developer to build a public overpass to serve the community.

The whole area around Terry Fox is quite confusing, with narrow two lane streets snaking through "Smart" Centres with massive parking lots. Eagleson is better suited for a parking garage as it's more accessible. The Corel Centre is another no brainer for a Park and Ride facility (using the existing surface parking lot), as it sits empty 98% of the time.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by SkeggsEggs

Thanks! So similar to OC Transpo's Gold sign areas at some Park and Rides?

More or less, yes. The GO garages aren't much on the eyes but they take up less space than some of the OC Transpo park-and-ride surface parking lots do. A stop like Eagleson could be developed nicely if it wasn't all surface parking and highway interchange, similar to what Montreal is seemingly going to look like.