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View Poll Results: Electric Vehicle Ownership Poll
I own a BEV (Battery Electric Vehicle) 7 26.92%
I own a PHEV (Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle) 2 7.69%
I own an HEV (Hybrid Electric Vehicle) 2 7.69%
I'm considering a BEV (Tesla, LEAF, Bolt, etc.) 6 23.08%
I'm considering a PHEV (Volt, etc.) 6 23.08%
I'm considering a HEV (Prius, etc.) 3 11.54%
I would only buy a non-electric gas or diesel car 3 11.54%
I don't want a car 4 15.38%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 26. You may not vote on this poll

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  #501  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2020, 2:06 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by CyrusKafaiwu View Post
To even add on, they are only looking to put two chargers in Ottawa at Home Depot?!?!!?
My theory is that they are aiming more at squatting than building a charging network. Lock down rights and locations. Maybe they expand later or get bought out.
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  #502  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2020, 2:55 AM
Mister F Mister F is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
If by fraction you mean 0.4%. Sure.....

SoCal Edison is actually targeting multi-unit dwellings as I had previously suggested in this thread. Ivy is putting up fast chargers and not even looking at multi-unit residences. Different goals.
Well, 1/250 is a fraction.

I agree. Eventually we'll get there, when so many people are buying EVs that multi unit buildings will have to install chargers just to be able to attract buyers and tenants. I wouldn't expect much action from our current government though.
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  #503  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2020, 4:00 PM
Tesladom Tesladom is offline
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What few non-EV owners out there don't understand is that you don't need huge power to charge EVs, a 240v 20AMP connection is more than adequate. There's too much focus on charging speed. You charge overnight, assume your car is parked 12 hours that's about 300km of range added each night

Last edited by Tesladom; Sep 1, 2020 at 4:24 PM.
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  #504  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2020, 4:02 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by Tesladom View Post
What few non-EV owners out there don't understand is that you don't need huge power to charge EVs, a 240v 20AMP connection is more than adequate. There's too much focus on charging speed
I think most people get that fast chargers are needed for en route charging and that everywhere else the concern is just charging access.
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  #505  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2020, 12:39 AM
DarthVader_1961 DarthVader_1961 is offline
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The chargers at Canadian tire in Bells Corners are completed. 8 Chargers...

Last edited by DarthVader_1961; Sep 2, 2020 at 1:03 AM. Reason: Corrected typo
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  #506  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2020, 5:06 PM
CanadaGoose CanadaGoose is offline
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Originally Posted by DarthVader_1961 View Post
The chargers at Canadian tire in Bells Corners are completed. 8 Chargers...
They are not powered on yet. Just like the Electifiy America ones at Coventry CT.
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  #507  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2020, 4:05 PM
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Originally Posted by SidetrackedSue View Post
A good segue to my request....

We've decided to pull the trigger and purchase a Tesla Model Y. Given we don't have a place to plug in, we're hoping we can pull this off without having to buy a house in order to install a charger at home (that would make the car really expensive!)

[Edited and took out my first request as I solved that on my own]

Second: can the EV enthusiasts here recommend Canadian based or even more local forums I can join? I've found the Tesla Ottawa Owners Club forum but it's pretty quiet.
Congrats! I strongly second CyrusKafaiwu's recommendation of PlugShare and A Better Route Planner. As for charging network apps, figure out which networks you are most likely to use and install those. Some to choose from are (though I am sure there are others):
  • Flo,
  • ElectricCircuit,
  • ChargePoint,
  • myEVRoute,
  • Electrify Canada,
  • Ivy, and
  • SWITCH

You also might want to consider joining the Electric Vehicle Council of Ottawa. They offer a free trial membership.
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  #508  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2020, 8:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
People charging while getting groceries. Imagine that.
Got to love the Straw man comments. No one here said people wouldn't charge while getting groceries if charging was available. If I was shopping at the new Metro on Eagleson, I would plug in and get some free electrons. However, even though it is only 9 km away, it wouldn't be worth the detour, even if I couldn't charge at home. With 6.6kW charging and an assumed vehicle efficiency of 5 km/kWh (about average) you are only going to get about 17km of charge in 30 minutes or 25km in 45 minutes.

Even if it was your closest grocery store and you did two, 45 minute shopping trips, you would only be gaining about 50 km a week of charge, so you will almost definitely have to find somewhere else to charge.

Can you live with a BEV without charging at home? Yes, CyrusKafaiwu is proof of that, but even he admits that life would be much easier if he could, so that should be our long term objective.

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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
As an effort to reduce GHG emissions, EV rebates are a joke. There's plenty of better ways to spend that money. As political greenwashing and vote buying? Highly effective.
I look it as being similar to the rebates on LED bulbs before they came down in price. It helped people start buying them sooner. Now LEDs are only slightly more expensive than incandescent bulbs.

Quote:
The rebates are going to become more politically precarious as the number of models on the market goes up in the next two years and rebate claims skyrocket. They should have been smart and created a drawdown schedule that takes into account declining battery prices. Assuming the forecasts are right and BEVs hit our purchase price parity in 2025, there's no need for rebates after that. They should start reducing the rebate by $1000 per year.
I agree that once BEVs reach purchase price parody (they are already cheaper in long term operating costs), the rebates will no longer be necessary. That cost parody may not be equal across the board though. It is much easier to reach cost parody on an expensive SUV and an affordable economy car, so we may need to slide the threshold down to allow a subsidy on affordable cars but not on more expensive ones.

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And yeah, eventually, we are going to have to discuss how roads are going to be funded with declining fuel tax revenue. Maybe a fixed charge by vehicle size. The average personal vehicle with average mileage is probably paying $300-400 in provincial and federal fuel excise taxes. And about the same in sales taxes on their fuel. Maybe tacking on $400 to annual registration of an EV is a fair way to go about it.
First of all, road funding is not correlated to fuel taxes. The vast majority of roads are paid for by the municipal governments, who don't receive any fuel tax revenue.

The federal government funds very few roads (just a few parkways here and there), so the vast majority of the federal excise tax is used to pay for other services not related to driving. Sure that revenue will need to be made up somewhere, but it there is no need for it to come from vehicles.

The Carbon tax was created to try and reduce carbon emissions and gets fed back to the taxpayers, so there is no need to replace it.

HST is charged on both fuel and electricity, so it isn't relevant. It is true you will likely spend less to charge a car than to fill it with gas, so less income will be generated, but it is going into general revenue, and there is no traceability to show that it came from vehicles.

Only the Ontario Fuel Tax could even closely be considered related to road funding (though AFAIK it actually goes into general revenue). The thing is, the province only pays for provincial highway maintenance, and the have been offloading them to the municipalities when they can (I'm looking at you Hwy 174).

Assuming the money from the Ontario Fuel Tax does all go towards funding highways, you are over estimating how much the average person (vehicle) is paying. The average vehicle in Ontario travels 16,000 km per year ref. The vehicles in Canada use an average of 8.9 l/100km of gasoline ref, so the average vehicle uses 1424 l of gas per year. The Ontario Fuel Tax is set at 14.7¢ per litre of unleaded gasoline ref, so that works out to an average of $209.33 per year, not $300-400.
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  #509  
Old Posted Sep 7, 2020, 9:50 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
I look it as being similar to the rebates on LED bulbs before they came down in price. It helped people start buying them sooner. Now LEDs are only slightly more expensive than incandescent bulbs.
The problem with rebates in Canada is that we're such a tiny part of the global auto market that our rebates do little to nothing to drive development and cost reduction. It would be supportable as part of any industrial development strategy, if those EVs were assembled in Canada. They aren't. We're literally subsidizing foreign jobs. If there goal is to drive down cost, let's get a global agreement with commitments from others to subsidize EVs too.

As it stands though, these subsidies weren't justified as you suggest. They were justified as part of the GHG emissions reduction effort. On that basis, they are all but indefensible. EV rebates for personal vehicles is probably among the last efficient emissions reductions policies out there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
I agree that once BEVs reach purchase price parody (they are already cheaper in long term operating costs), the rebates will no longer be necessary. That cost parody may not be equal across the board though. It is much easier to reach cost parody on an expensive SUV and an affordable economy car, so we may need to slide the threshold down to allow a subsidy on affordable cars but not on more expensive ones.
It's really stretch to argue that somebody should get tax breaks for buying a larger vehicle.

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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
First of all, road funding is not correlated to fuel taxes. The vast majority of roads are paid for by the municipal governments, who don't receive any fuel tax revenue.

The federal government funds very few roads (just a few parkways here and there), so the vast majority of the federal excise tax is used to pay for other services not related to driving. Sure that revenue will need to be made up somewhere, but it there is no need for it to come from vehicles.
Federal gas taxes contribute billions annually to transit investments. I don't see why a change of fuel should exempt a driver and vehicle from that obligation. The problem of urban sprawl and traffic congestion, doesn't go away with EVs. Emissions from fuel combustion are not the only externality associated with personal vehicles.

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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
Only the Ontario Fuel Tax could even closely be considered related to road funding (though AFAIK it actually goes into general revenue). The thing is, the province only pays for provincial highway maintenance, and the have been offloading them to the municipalities when they can (I'm looking at you Hwy 174).

Assuming the money from the Ontario Fuel Tax does all go towards funding highways, you are over estimating how much the average person (vehicle) is paying. The average vehicle in Ontario travels 16,000 km per year ref. The vehicles in Canada use an average of 8.9 l/100km of gasoline ref, so the average vehicle uses 1424 l of gas per year. The Ontario Fuel Tax is set at 14.7¢ per litre of unleaded gasoline ref, so that works out to an average of $209.33 per year, not $300-400.
Now do the math with 10¢ Federal Excise Tax added in. You'll end up around $350.
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  #510  
Old Posted Sep 8, 2020, 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
The problem with rebates in Canada is that we're such a tiny part of the global auto market that our rebates do little to nothing to drive development and cost reduction. It would be supportable as part of any industrial development strategy, if those EVs were assembled in Canada. They aren't. We're literally subsidizing foreign jobs.
You are missing the point. It isn't about driving the cost down. As you say, we are a small market and have little effect in that regard. It is about meeting targets of EV adoption until price parity can be achieved. Do you really think we can meet the target of 10% ZEV sales by 2025 without incentives? If we miss that target, do you think we will hit the 30% target by 2030? And so on.

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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
If there goal is to drive down cost, let's get a global agreement with commitments from others to subsidize EVs too.
There may not be a global agreement, but most developed countries (including the USA) have incentives for ZEVs.

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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
As it stands though, these subsidies weren't justified as you suggest. They were justified as part of the GHG emissions reduction effort. On that basis, they are all but indefensible. EV rebates for personal vehicles is probably among the last efficient emissions reductions policies out there.
I agree that it would be more effective to target high mileage fleet vehicles. The good news is fleet vehicle owners tend to look at the full cost of ownership and are starting to see that BEVs can save them money in the long run, despite the higher sticker price.

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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
It's really stretch to argue that somebody should get tax breaks for buying a larger vehicle.
Read what I am saying again. The tax breaks should be focused on smaller vehicles as those will be the last ones to reach cost paridy.

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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Federal gas taxes contribute billions annually to transit investments.
Is there a direct coloration between the two? I haven't seen any evidence in that regard. Please prove me wrong if you can.

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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
I don't see why a change of fuel should exempt a driver and vehicle from that obligation.
Transit investment is the obligation of everyone, I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
The problem of urban sprawl and traffic congestion, doesn't go away with EVs. Emissions from fuel combustion are not the only externality associated with personal vehicles.
I agree, but there are better ways to curtail urban sprawl and traffic congestion than fuel taxes. Local pollution may not be the only externality, but it is major issue.

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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Now do the math with 10¢ Federal Excise Tax added in. You'll end up around $350.
Maybe, but as I said there is little to no correlation between the collection of the Federal Excise Tax and either road or transit investment. Sure the tax deficit will need to be collected elsewhere somehow, but that is a separate issue.
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  #511  
Old Posted Sep 8, 2020, 1:11 AM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
I agree that it would be more effective to target high mileage fleet vehicles. The good news is fleet vehicle owners tend to look at the full cost of ownership and are starting to see that BEVs can save them money in the long run, despite the higher sticker price.
Targeting the subsidies at them would have been far more effective. Giving a taxi driver 20k for a Tesla does more to cut emissions than given 4 drivers $5k for a new car. This 30% by 2030 is a sort of foolish target. Aiming for 100% of fleets by 2025 would have done a lot more.

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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
Is there a direct coloration between the two? I haven't seen any evidence in that regard. Please prove me wrong if you can.
Quote:
Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
Maybe, but as I said there is little to no correlation between the collection of the Federal Excise Tax and either road or transit investment. Sure the tax deficit will need to be collected elsewhere somehow, but that is a separate issue.
Why does there have to be a direct correlation? It's how we have chosen to fund transit development. By getting drivers to partly pay for transit infrastructure with excise taxes on their fuel. That this makes driving and personal vehicle ownership more expensive is a good thing. Balances the externalities associated with personal vehicle ownership.

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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
Transit investment is the obligation of everyone, I agree.
Okay?

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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
I agree, but there are better ways to curtail urban sprawl and traffic congestion than fuel taxes. Local pollution may not be the only externality, but it is major issue.
There's plenty of theoretical ways. None that ever get implemented as readily and easily as jacking up registration fees. Personally, i'd support some kind of geographic delineation. Live in a rural area? $200. Live in an urban or suburban area? $600
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  #512  
Old Posted Sep 8, 2020, 12:54 PM
SidetrackedSue SidetrackedSue is offline
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
Congrats! ...
Thanks!

Your recommendations are duly noted.

It is Flo at Farmboy and Chargepoint (IIRC) at MEC, those being our two closest chargers. Since we don't have a plug of any sort here, we'll join those two.

From Jan 2019 to Jan 2020 we drove an average of 48km per day but that included an Atlantic Canada road trip and three Ontario road trips, so that gives me a sense of how much juice I'll need.

We'll plug into 120v at my kids' homes when visiting and use the Supercharger if we need a fast charge (i.e. road trips.) My daughter offered to look into a 240V charger at her place but I can't see it being cost effective, we are usually just there 2 - 3 hours and it is a 40km round trip.

We've already figured out a plan for our usual Ontario road trip (not easy since it is far from 400 series highways and we already have a destination so staying at a different place just to be allowed to charge isn't part of our plan.)

Aside from that, we have no real plan aside from continued pressure on our building manager for a 120v in our parking spot which solves almost all concerns since an overnight charge will cover off an average day's driving.
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  #513  
Old Posted Sep 8, 2020, 1:33 PM
CanadaGoose CanadaGoose is offline
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Originally Posted by SidetrackedSue View Post
Thanks!

Your recommendations are duly noted.

It is Flo at Farmboy and Chargepoint (IIRC) at MEC, those being our two closest chargers. Since we don't have a plug of any sort here, we'll join those two.

From Jan 2019 to Jan 2020 we drove an average of 48km per day but that included an Atlantic Canada road trip and three Ontario road trips, so that gives me a sense of how much juice I'll need.

We'll plug into 120v at my kids' homes when visiting and use the Supercharger if we need a fast charge (i.e. road trips.) My daughter offered to look into a 240V charger at her place but I can't see it being cost effective, we are usually just there 2 - 3 hours and it is a 40km round trip.

We've already figured out a plan for our usual Ontario road trip (not easy since it is far from 400 series highways and we already have a destination so staying at a different place just to be allowed to charge isn't part of our plan.)

Aside from that, we have no real plan aside from continued pressure on our building manager for a 120v in our parking spot which solves almost all concerns since an overnight charge will cover off an average day's driving.
I live in the same area.

I’m renting, so I have no influence on getting a charger installed.

Here’s some charging ideas:
Farmboy gives free parking with $10 validation.
ChaDeMo adapter is useful for a quick charge at Costco in Gatineau.
City Hall charger is 2$/hr (cheaper than regular downtown parking)
Bayshore provides free charging, but free means always taken.
Ikea same thing, free charging.

I would honestly be fine if they charged 2$/hr for L2 charging on streets.

And yeah, that’s it.
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  #514  
Old Posted Sep 8, 2020, 1:40 PM
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Originally Posted by SidetrackedSue View Post
It is Flo at Farmboy and Chargepoint (IIRC) at MEC, those being our two closest chargers. Since we don't have a plug of any sort here, we'll join those two.
Yes, that is correct. Looking at PlugShare, Farmboy charges $1.25 per hour but parking is free. OTOH, at MEC charging is free but you have to pay for parking ($1 per hour).

PlugShare also shows another one at Indigo - Westboro Park. It isn't networked and doesn't show any details so some exploration will be needed.

PlugShare relies on community participation, so sign up for a free account and add details and photos of the places you charge.

Quote:
From Jan 2019 to Jan 2020 we drove an average of 48km per day but that included an Atlantic Canada road trip and three Ontario road trips, so that gives me a sense of how much juice I'll need.
So if you assume 3000km for the Atlantic road trip and 1000 km for each of the three Ontario road trips, you are actually looking at about 220 km per week or 32 km per day during normal use?

Quote:
We'll plug into 120v at my kids' homes when visiting and use the Supercharger if we need a fast charge (i.e. road trips.) My daughter offered to look into a 240V charger at her place but I can't see it being cost effective, we are usually just there 2 - 3 hours and it is a 40km round trip.
Instead of her installing a Wall Connector. have her get an electrician install an NEMA 14-50 (or NEMA 14-30) outlet and buy the appropriate NEMA Adapter for your mobile connector. They would recharge your Model Y by 29 (or 21) km per hour of charging respectively, so you would gain between 42 and 87 km of range in 2-3 hours (depending on the plug type and duration).

Quote:
We've already figured out a plan for our usual Ontario road trip (not easy since it is far from 400 series highways and we already have a destination so staying at a different place just to be allowed to charge isn't part of our plan.)
That is why I keep saying priority needs to go to building out the charging network off of the 400 series highways. Ivy is doing a decent job of this, but there is still a huge hole in the middle of the Ottawa Valley.

Quote:
Aside from that, we have no real plan aside from continued pressure on our building manager for a 120v in our parking spot which solves almost all concerns since an overnight charge will cover off an average day's driving.
What are his concerns? I would love to help you with this if at all possible.
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  #515  
Old Posted Sep 8, 2020, 1:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrusKafaiwu View Post
Here’s some charging ideas:
Farmboy gives free parking with $10 validation.
ChaDeMo adapter is useful for a quick charge at Costco in Gatineau.
City Hall charger is 2$/hr (cheaper than regular downtown parking)
Bayshore provides free charging, but free means always taken.
Ikea same thing, free charging.
To add to the list, World Exchange Plaza has free charging and on weekends the parking is free.
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  #516  
Old Posted Sep 8, 2020, 2:07 PM
CanadaGoose CanadaGoose is offline
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
To add to the list, World Exchange Plaza has free charging and on weekends the parking is free.
To add on, that parking lot is locked up on weekends now since Covid-19.

You need a monthly pass now.

——
Nema 14-50 gets me 50km/h of charge.
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  #517  
Old Posted Sep 8, 2020, 2:52 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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To those of you that own EVs in Ottawa. What are the charging networks you most commonly use locally?
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  #518  
Old Posted Sep 8, 2020, 5:32 PM
CanadaGoose CanadaGoose is offline
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
To those of you that own EVs in Ottawa. What are the charging networks you most commonly use locally?
Whichever charging network is available.
Mostly Flo or electric circuit or Tesla.

I don’t think we have a choice to be picky.

I will say most Sun Country chargers adapters are corroded or falling apart (probably because they were the first ones).

There’s no need for preference. They are mostly all the same price.
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  #519  
Old Posted Sep 8, 2020, 6:05 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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Some require monthly membership fees no?
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  #520  
Old Posted Sep 8, 2020, 7:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
To those of you that own EVs in Ottawa. What are the charging networks you most commonly use locally?
Since I am lucky enough to be able to charge at home, I don't charge in public very often, but from my experience ChargePoint seems to be the most common, but that could just be me. As CyrusKafaiwu said, you use what is available.

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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Some require monthly membership fees no?
AFAIK, none require a monthly fee. Some (like Electrify Canada) have the option to pay a monthly fee to get a lower rate, but it isn't required. Many you can just use a credit card, though some do require use of their app.
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