Does Western Alienation exist, and how can we fix it?

[misher]

Originally Posted by milomilo

You appear to believe you have a better understanding than other posters on this, but that's probably not the case. Most of the Alberta posters will have a decent understanding of how the oil gets to market, and are well aware that Albertan bitumen sells at a discount.

There's no pipeline from the platforms off Newfoundland, FYI. It's offloaded onto tankers first. I've been onboard when it happens.

Isn’t a lot of the oil out East imported from the Middle East? Last I checked you don’t produce enough. I’m open to being corrected here.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by misher

Isn’t a lot of the oil out East imported from the Middle East? Last I checked you don’t produce enough. I’m open to being corrected here.

I'm not from the East. But yes, it is. Until recently I believe the refinery in Newfoundland couldn't process oil produced off Newfoundland.

But it doesn't matter. Markets are most efficient when they can trade freely, and if it is somehow cheaper to get oil from abroad while also exporting, that is what should be done. Shipping oil across the ocean is cheap.

[Corndogger]

I guess Quebeckers aren't all that opposed to pipelines after all. #Hypocrites

Engie, Caisse to Buy Petrobras Pipe Unit for $8.6 Billion

Petroleo Brasileiro SA agreed to sell its 90 percent stake in a natural gas pipeline unit to France’s Engie SA and Canadian pension fund Caisse de Depot et Placement du Quebec for $8.6 billion.

Engie and the Caisse prevailed after multiple rounds of bidding for the unit, known as TAG, beating out Macquarie Group Ltd. and a joint bid from EIG Global Energy Partners and Mubadala Development Co. It is the biggest-ever single asset sale for Petrobras, whose new chief executive officer has sought to speed divestitures that began years ago, when the state-run energy giant briefly became the world’s most indebted oil company.

...

When the transaction is completed, Engie will have a 58.5 percent stake in TAG while the Caisse will own 31.5 percent, the companies said in a statement.

Source: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/...ach-9-billion-sale-of-pipe-unit-to-engie

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by milomilo

You appear to believe you have a better understanding than other posters on this, but that's probably not the case. Most of the Alberta posters will have a decent understanding of how the oil gets to market, and are well aware that Albertan bitumen sells at a discount.

There's no pipeline from the platforms off Newfoundland, FYI. It's offloaded onto tankers first. I've been onboard when it happens.

My mistake. Which actually means it is even better as it goes directly to the refinery, right?

[misher]

Originally Posted by milomilo

I'm not from the East. But yes, it is. Until recently I believe the refinery in Newfoundland couldn't process oil produced off Newfoundland.

But it doesn't matter. Markets are most efficient when they can trade freely, and if it is somehow cheaper to get oil from abroad while also exporting, that is what should be done. Shipping oil across the ocean is cheap.

Yep I googled and Newfoundland gets dictator oil, its one third of its production. Got to love waking up to the smell of human rights abuse every day? Cheap oil is the best right?:

In 2015, Irving Oil said it was no longer importing Bakken shale oil, but was taking cheaper crudes from Saudi Arabia.[5]

Conservative politician Andrew Scheer stated in November 2017 that Canada should ban the import of oil from Saudi Arabia due to human rights and environmental concerns.[6] In December 2018 Scheer demanded that the gender-based analysis requirement imposed on Canadian pipeline projects by the Liberal government be instead applied to oil imported from Saudi Arabia.[7][relevant? – discuss]

It came to light because of the 2019 Abqaiq–Khurais attack that virtually all the 115,000 barrels per day of imported Saudi oil that is processed in Canada is processed at the Irving oil refinery. Canada accounted for 1.5 per cent of exports from Saudi Arabia in 2018, when the refinery produced from Saudi oil one-third of its total output.[8]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irving_Oil_Refinery

Seriously when you read this crap no wonder the West is alienated. The human rights abuses and genocide supported by the East just makes Canada look bad. What's with your constant support of dictatorships? You'd rather buy your oil for a discount from somewhere that practices slave labour, child labour, requires 4 men to attest that a woman was raped for it to be proven, and kills homosexuals than build a pipeline. The East basically hates women, children, promotes slavery, and hates LGBT people. You criticize us for supporting Kenny/Scheer yet you go and buy your oil from a man hanging homosexuals then buy his kids escorts.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

My mistake. Which actually means it is even better as it goes directly to the refinery, right?

It does now, but the refinery in Newfoundland only recently (2015) started refining oil produced offshore of Canada. While the decisions of where to import and export oil to look a bit weird on the surface, oil companies know how to make money. If it makes financial sense to export Newfoundland oil to China while Eastern Canada imports oil from Norway, that's what they'll do and there is very little reason to stop the international trading of oil.

Alberta doesn't have this luxury, very little oil is able to be sold at world prices. TMX will help this, but it might end up that we still sell it mostly to the USA. In the end, it doesn't matter if we actually sell the oil to China or wherever, only that we can.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by misher

Yep I googled and Newfoundland gets dictator oil, its one third of its production. Got to love waking up to the smell of human rights abuse every day? Cheap oil is the best right?:


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irving_Oil_Refinery

Seriously when you read this crap no wonder the West is alienated. The human rights abuses and genocide supported by the East just makes Canada look bad. What's with your constant support of dictatorships?

It's irrational to just focus on that one trade. We do business with plenty of shady regimes world wide, why is oil so special that we'd want to massively subsidize the transport of it to avoid just one of those bad trades?

Besides, if Canada unilaterally banned the import of Saudi oil, but not other countries', we would just import it from those countries instead for a slightly higher price. And the Saudis would sell their oil to any other country, for a slightly lower price.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by misher

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irving_Oil_Refinery

Seriously when you read this crap no wonder the West is alienated. The human rights abuses and genocide supported by the East just makes Canada look bad. What's with your constant support of dictatorships? You'd rather buy your oil for a discount from somewhere that practices slave labour, child labour, requires 4 men to attest that a woman was raped for it to be proven, and kills homosexuals than build a pipeline. The East basically hates women, children, promotes slavery, and hates LGBT people. You criticize us for supporting Kenny/Scheer yet you go and buy your oil from a man hanging homosexuals then buy his kids escorts.

This has little to nothing to do with what "the East" "wants". Voters in ON/QC/NS/PEI/NL don't get to choose where Irving buys their oil from. The Irvings also definitely aren't universally well-liked or respected for their business practices, even (especially) in NB. I think most people on the East Coast would choose to use 100% Canadian oil if that were a viable option that was presented to consumers.

[Bishop2047]

Originally Posted by misher

Yep I googled and Newfoundland gets dictator oil, its one third of its production. Got to love waking up to the smell of human rights abuse every day? Cheap oil is the best right?:


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irving_Oil_Refinery

Seriously when you read this crap no wonder the West is alienated. The human rights abuses and genocide supported by the East just makes Canada look bad. What's with your constant support of dictatorships? You'd rather buy your oil for a discount from somewhere that practices slave labour, child labour, requires 4 men to attest that a woman was raped for it to be proven, and kills homosexuals than build a pipeline. The East basically hates women, children, promotes slavery, and hates LGBT people. You criticize us for supporting Kenny/Scheer yet you go and buy your oil from a man hanging homosexuals then buy his kids escorts.

"The East" as in Atlantic Canada wanted a pipeline for the most part, and won't seem let the idea entirely die.

Now can someone tell me what is worse buying form a less than moral dictatorship ripe with human rights violations, or selling to one? Not sure if you are aware of the reason TMX is being built but is primarily to get our oil to market, and specifically to one particular nation that is guilty of just about everything you just listed.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by misher

Or you just follow the Canadian economy like any other province, if you were "diversified" you wouldn't see unemployment spikes when the economy goes bad. Your employment rate has been increasing under Ford, that must rankle. If you look at Alberta there the exact same, up and down with the economy except for a large spike right after Trudeau was elected for the first time.

A new government doesn't have an immediate effect on the economy unless drastic spending cuts and/or layoffs are being made by that government.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

I guess Quebeckers aren't all that opposed to pipelines after all. #Hypocrites

Engie, Caisse to Buy Petrobras Pipe Unit for $8.6 Billion

Petroleo Brasileiro SA agreed to sell its 90 percent stake in a natural gas pipeline unit to France’s Engie SA and Canadian pension fund Caisse de Depot et Placement du Quebec for $8.6 billion.

Engie and the Caisse prevailed after multiple rounds of bidding for the unit, known as TAG, beating out Macquarie Group Ltd. and a joint bid from EIG Global Energy Partners and Mubadala Development Co. It is the biggest-ever single asset sale for Petrobras, whose new chief executive officer has sought to speed divestitures that began years ago, when the state-run energy giant briefly became the world’s most indebted oil company.

...

When the transaction is completed, Engie will have a 58.5 percent stake in TAG while the Caisse will own 31.5 percent, the companies said in a statement.

Source: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/...ach-9-billion-sale-of-pipe-unit-to-engie

I posted a few weeks ago about the about to be built Gazoduc LNG pipeline from Ramore, ON to Saguenay, QC. (780 Kilometres long) I got a notice in the mail about it and about meetings I could attend in the region. It will be using natural gas from Western Canada for a liquefaction plant in Saguenay.

Link: https://gazoduq.com/en/

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I posted a few weeks ago about the about to be built Gazoduc LNG pipeline from Ramore, ON to Saguenay, QC. (780 Kilometres long) I got a notice in the mail about it and about meetings I could attend in the region. It will be using natural gas from Western Canada for a liquefaction plant in Saguenay.

Link: https://gazoduq.com/en/

Good to see.

[Martin Mtl]

Quebec gets its oil mainly from Canada (44%) and the US (37%).

https://www.nationalobserver.com/2018/11/13/news/guess-where-quebec-gets-its-oil

[davidivivid]

According to a study by HEC Montreal, as of june 2018, 53% of the oil imported by Quebec comes from canadian producers in Alberta and Saskatchewan. (40% USA and 6% Algeria).

Quebec's refinery capacity is about 405 000 barils per day. If we suppose that Quebec refineries function to their full capacity, it would mean that Quebec bought about 215 000 barils per day from western producers in 2018 (78 million yearly).

http://energie.hec.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/EEQ2019_WEB.pdf

Originally Posted by misher

The East basically hates women, children, promotes slavery, and hates LGBT people.

..............................

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by davidivivid

According to a study by HEC Montreal, as of june 2018, 53% of the oil imported by Quebec comes from canadian producers in Alberta and Saskatchewan. (40% USA and 6% Algeria).

Quebec's refinery capacity is about 405 000 barils per day. If we suppose that Quebec refineries function to their full capacity, it would mean that Quebec bought about 215 000 barils per day from western producers in 2018 (78 million yearly).

http://energie.hec.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/EEQ2019_WEB.pdf


..............................

So, what would 4% more look like? I doubt it would be enough to save jobs that are already gone.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

So, what would 4% more look like? I doubt it would be enough to save jobs that are already gone.

Quebec has the highest EV incentives, I wonder how much of a dent that is making in demand.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

So, what would 4% more look like? I doubt it would be enough to save jobs that are already gone.

Where is this 4% figure coming from?

[rotten42]

Originally Posted by milomilo

I'm not from the East. But yes, it is. Until recently I believe the refinery in Newfoundland couldn't process oil produced off Newfoundland.

But it doesn't matter. Markets are most efficient when they can trade freely, and if it is somehow cheaper to get oil from abroad while also exporting, that is what should be done. Shipping oil across the ocean is cheap.

So forget about supporting your country's industries first and the larger carbon footprint of bring in oil from overseas.

[misher]

Originally Posted by rotten42

So forget about supporting your country's industries first and the larger carbon footprint of bring in oil from overseas.

Even better let’s kill our western provinces industries but support the same thing in the east and Middle East

[TorontoDrew]

Or get off of oil as a main source of fuel all together like we eventually have to and diversify our economy. But hey people let's not care about the future.