DENVER | Main Development Thread #7

[JB1530]

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

That is an epic portfolio. I would be interested to see if they do something very modernist looking

We're working on it. We will likely have some images to share after the first of the year. The City set a very high bar for us in terms of design quality given the other buildings surrounding CC Park - DAM, Kirkland, Clyfford Styll, Central Library, etc. - and we're doing our best to respond. Has been a real treat working with an architect of this caliber, and the project is going to turn out great.

[Utah_Dave]

Originally Posted by laniroj

To quantify how much the world has changed since then, and to point out the naivety of older generations as to the struggles of younger generations (particularly housing), I will point out the following:

You can no longer move to Aspen after you graduate from college. You couldn't even buy a trailer and park it to camp within 20 miles of Aspen. You couldn't even afford to rent a room in Aspen unless you and 6 of your friends built a bunk in a studio apartment/condo. If you're lucky, you might win a housing lottery (which is so vast you might as well buy a lottery ticket) in Basalt, or Carbondale, or Glenwood Springs, but chances are you're commuting to Aspen from Dotsero or Rifle. If you're really lucky you'd have a prosperous restaurant or the ski company with some housing for you in Glenwood. This is what older folks don't understand - young people do not have the same opportunity that old folks did. If you suggested to a college student that they move to Aspen, unless their folks are 0.5%'ers, that's completely laughable. It's the first time in 500 years that the previous generation of Americans didn't leave the next generation a more prosperous life - I'm a die hard libertarian, and federal nannyism on this topic would ABSOLUTELY promote smaller government and result in the government (as a concept in totality) having much less involvement and say with local matters because local government currently has way too much say. Just an opinion, but federal intervention would absolutely help in this case.

I’m going to chime in on this one if you don’t mind. I was born in 1978 so I’m on the tail end of generation X just so you know where I’m coming from. Your best opportunity is not going to be Aspen anymore. The younger generation can’t follow in the previous generations footsteps and have the same opportunities. You will need to create your own opportunities and generate your own incomes in new ways. I’m sure you already know this as well. I am concerned about anyone spending much more then 50% of their income on housing, unless it’s part of their investments. The key for the younger crown is living below your means, maybe further out or in the bad parts of town. There are also smaller towns that are plenty affordable compared to the Denver’s and Austin’s of the country. I’m not up to speed on current affordability in the smaller cities but Boise, Ogden, and other like sized cities are good bets to save on housing. Young folks also need multiple streams of income as they mature into the work force. 1-2 side incomes is a great goal that will come with time and I think is really key for the average person who didn’t get lucky in life or really have their shit together when they were young.

The biggest head wind to the younger group is the number of investors driving up costs, both locally and internationally. I would also recommend getting some experience in the trades. That’s such a great way to supplement your income on the side. Money makes money.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by laniroj

TakeFive - with all due respect, this is a view point of older generations. This is not the view point of younger folks who LITERALLY CANT AFFORD LIFE. They choose between healthcare and housing. They cannot save for retirement. They have to have roommates. They can't afford to start families. They pay 50%-75% of their income on housing, leaving little if any for any of life's other necessities. It's not a matter of the issue being widespread...it is - what data might you propose that says otherwise? The best paying jobs are in major metro areas for most people. There are exceptions to this, but for the vast majority this is the reality.

The issue is that the ruling/voting generation of America retains the decision making power and they are thus far resistant to meaningful change (put another way, they are unwilling to share the opportunities they so easily enjoyed). Say what you want, but this is a generational battle and it's only going to get worse.

Sounds like not only is your glass half full it's running on empty. Sorry about you ongoing Boomer befuddlement. You're obviously insistent on stewing in your own strange brew.

Over the last decade twenty times as many young millionaires have been created in a given year than back in 'my day' (on inflation adjusted $'s).

This economy we live in is amazing; the continuous tech innovation has been fueled totally by free-market capitalism (using those terms in a general and not a pure sense). We had a Russian immigrant as a Google co-founder; Microsoft has an Indian immigrant CEO. Our tech economy would be floundering if not for venture capital - the epitome of free market capitalism.

Who do you think is building all those shiny new buildings in downtown Denver that everyone admires. They're capitalists. Same for Seattle which is a tech and Amazon on steroids-driven economy.

I'm confident that our tech world is just like me. They're socially tolerant and empathetic but otherwise capitalist loving geeks.

Do poor people own smart phones? Maybe not the latest I-phone but yes they do; how amazing is that? Do lower socioeconomic people own cars? Yes they do; often acquired through the gray market and studies by both USC and UCLA have shown how having a car has provided much better access to jobs and has raised their living standard. Do poor people own flat screen tee vee's? Yes, a great many of them do.

Other than to say that socialism has proven by those countries where it exists to not be an answer to anything, I'm not interested in re-debating all of today's problems and political talking points. I look to the right; I look to the left; you're all nuts.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by laniroj

You can no longer move to Aspen after you graduate from college. You couldn't even buy a trailer and park it to camp within 20 miles of Aspen. You couldn't even afford to rent a room in Aspen unless you and 6 of your friends built a bunk in a studio apartment/condo. If you're lucky, you might win a housing lottery (which is so vast you might as well buy a lottery ticket) in Basalt, or Carbondale, or Glenwood Springs

Yes, back in the day Aspen was ski-bum heaven but many of us found better housing in Basalt etc. And yes they still have lower paying jobs. And yes you can still find a cheap beer and some good grub.

A friend of my brothers has lived in Aspen for ~25 years; he's still has the same mid-west industrial roots he's always had.

And today commuting is much easier:


Image courtesy Aspen Times

[mishko27]

eh, nevermind

[mishko27]

Originally Posted by SirLucasTheGreat

That is an epic portfolio. I would be interested to see if they do something very modernist looking

I feel as though their talents may be wasted on a 14 story hotel. I wish we got a super tall from a studio like this.

[RyanD]

Took a neat perspective of Block 162 this weekend, I thought you all might like it:

https://denverinfill.com/blog/2019/0...-update-8.html

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by RyanD

Took a neat perspective of Block 162 this weekend, I thought you all might like it:

Me likey. Thanks for the picture.

Also, while walking through downtown this weekend I went by 15th & Stout Hotel and noticed the screening is up on the parking podium- chalk it up as a major visual improvement and the project is now solid filler material.

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Sounds like not only is your glass half full it's running on empty. Sorry about you ongoing Boomer befuddlement. You're obviously insistent on stewing in your own strange brew.

This economy we live in is amazing; the continuous tech innovation has been fueled totally by free-market capitalism (using those terms in a general and not a pure sense).

Other than to say that socialism has proven by those countries where it exists to not be an answer to anything, I'm not interested in re-debating all of today's problems and political talking points. I look to the right; I look to the left; you're all nuts.

There is much agreement between us in your statement and we're largely of the same thinking, however your thoughts fail to address housing, my main point, and while we do have an economy, it's most definitely one of the haves vs the have-nots - so hopefully everyone "got theirs". Luckily for me, I am relatively unaffected by housing costs because 1) I bought a home before the insanity and 2) I am in a higher income category as I assume most other homeowners are. My thoughts pertain to the roughly 30-40% of Americans who rent and do not enjoy 30 years of predictable housing costs.

In large cities, everywhere, housing has become the #1 issue preventing working folks from living a better life and it doesn't have to be that way. Once cheap center cities are now pie in the sky to the masses (but not the exceptions) so folks live further and further away from their jobs (necessitating car ownership and contributing to environmental issues). Housing is a root cause of many other social issues. Could they live in Boise or Kansas City or Salt Lake City - yes, but why should they have to when we can make it work for everyone? Unaffordable housing affects everything from healthcare and life expectancy to the resilience of a family unit, successful educational outcomes for kids, household formation (and therefore economic growth) and labor market viability. Housing is quite literally the glue that keeps the American economy together and represents our best social safety net (or not).

The power class is choosing to prevent more people from enjoying more fruitful lives by denying housing to millions - it just doesn't have to be that way. We can choose to build more homes (of all types, everywhere) and provide more people a better life or we can choose to not build those extra homes and continue denying tens of million of Americans a better life.

I had the pleasure of meeting some health and human services workers several weeks back (those people work incredibly hard under terribly negative mental conditions and are generally saints). More and more, our collective social resources (both private and public) at the very highest of levels are abandoning one-off symptom treatment programs and focusing instead on housing. They are doing this because they finally realize you can't solve the problem if you're not addressing it's source and because they have dabbled with housing investments that have yielded terrific long term results.

If you look right, left, and center, the logical conclusion is that we need more homes, more affordable, to more people...which is why 17th/Sheridan was such a lost opportunity. Good news is there is a 5 story building designed for the Lakewood side across the street - but wait....that'll never get building permits now with Lakewood's growth initiative...

[laniroj]

Originally Posted by mishko27

I feel as though their talents may be wasted on a 14 story hotel. I wish we got a super tall from a studio like this.

Completely agreed. The good news is the more outside money that floods into Denver, the better chance we have at getting these types of archys.

[SirLucasTheGreat]

Does anyone know the fate of the Cottrell building? They had fencing up and they were taking down facade elements. Multiple staff members at 24 hour fitness have told me that they are opening a downtown location but I doubt that they were able to score a location as perfect as that.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by mishko27

I feel as though their talents may be wasted on a 14 story hotel. I wish we got a super tall from a studio like this.

Not exactly comparable to an 82-story tower but I'm still intrigued to see what Denver gets.

Originally Posted by RyanD

Took a neat perspective of Block 162 this weekend, I thought you all might like it:

I love those, especially the 1st shot... but then the 2nd is just as nice. What a difference maker Block 162 is.


Quite a change for Holland


Public Records via BusinessDen

Developer Holland proposes apartment complex along Santa Fe Drive
September 24, 2019 By Thomas Gounley/BusinessDen

Washington-based Holland Partner Group, which according to its website owns 15 apartment complexes in the Denver area, last week submitted an early-stage development proposal to the city for a 203-unit project along the corridor in Lincoln Park.

Holland is currently building apartment complex Neon Local at 99 S. Broadway and another eight-story project at 355 Logan St.

[Paulopolis]

I drove past this lot the other day, and there were some workers drilling into the asphalt in the parking lot surrounding Bud’s Muffler. I was wondering what was going on. Santa Fe Drive is finally getting some attention.

Quite a change for Holland


Public Records via BusinessDen

Developer Holland proposes apartment complex along Santa Fe Drive
September 24, 2019 By Thomas Gounley/BusinessDen

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by laniroj

In large cities, everywhere, housing has become the #1 issue preventing working folks from living a better life and it doesn't have to be that way.

I don't want to overlook the challenges or be insensitive but I'd still offer a counter-point.

A lot of 'my friends' walked across the border lacking any roof over their head. Over the years and decades many, many now own their own home. It may not look or be as nice as bunt's new place but they'll be happy to help him build it, tend to the landscaping, clean his house and haul away whatever he doesn't want; they'll even towel dry off his car at the car wash. It's people like bunt that provide the opportunity to make a living, modest as it may be.

https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/...as-future.html

Hispanic consumers will have a ton of buying power during the next few years — especially in Arizona, according to a report released Friday.
The Arizona Hispanic Chamber of Commerce "2019 Datos: The State of Arizona’s Hispanic Market" reported Hispanic buying power in Arizona will reach $57 billion in 2022.

Arizona is one of nine states that have a Hispanic population of more than 1 million — the Latino population in the state has more than tripled from around 700,000 in 1990 to over 2.3 million.

Do Hispanics ever become business owners?

The 23rd annual Datos report also found Hispanic-owned businesses are playing an increasingly important role in the American economy. The number of Hispanic-owned businesses increased by 40.2% from 2012 to 2018, while all U.S. businesses grew by 18.8% in comparison.

Researchers noted that, compared with other ethnic groups, Latinos are young, with a medium age of 29. More than 70% of Hispanic small business owners are under 45.

The American Dream is still alive for the many who have started with absolutely nothing.

[twister244]

Denver != Phoenix.........

[corey]

If I were looking for a more affordable city in which to live I go one hour down I-25 and live in Colorado Springs. Other than that it would probably be Albuquerque or Tucson. I’ll never leave Denver again, though, because Denver has excellent cultural facilities that far surpass Seattle, Phoenix, Portland, Las Vegas, Sacramento, and rival Los Angeles/San Diego and the Bay Area. The reason I live in a large city is for the culture. I’ve lived in Seattle, Portland, Sacramento, San Francisco, and spent ALOT of time in Los Angeles, Phoenix, Las Vegas, San Diego, and Salt Lake City with my old job and visiting relatives. I’m leaving out Eastern cities (which I’ve literally been to all of them) because I’d only live in the Western US. I was a catastrophe adjuster and I’ve been to all 50 states, all over Canada, and many Caribbean islands for months on end at each location. Denver has excellent art museums, botanic garden, nature and science museum, performing arts center, etc., etc. I always wonder why Seattle really lags behind most US cities for cultural facilities considering it’s size and the fact that several of the world’s richest people live there. The snobby citizens of Denver really do support culture and the arts more than most cities.

[JB1530]

Originally Posted by mishko27

I feel as though their talents may be wasted on a 14 story hotel. I wish we got a super tall from a studio like this.

Trust me, we wish it could have been taller. We're limited by the State Capitol view plane on that site, and the City has indicated an amendment there is a non-starter. We will not waste their talents.

[mishko27]

Originally Posted by JB1530

Trust me, we wish it could have been taller. We're limited by the State Capitol view plane on that site, and the City has indicated an amendment there is a non-starter. We will not waste their talents.

Good architecture is good architecture, regardless of the height I guess - I just long for an iconic supertall, and a studio of said caliber could deliver one successfully.

As long as their design is adhered to, I am going to be happy. Zaha Hadid drew an absolutely fabulous project for Bratislava (I am originally from Slovakia), and the developer is fuuuucking it up. So short, but architecturally significant is fine with me

[JB1530]

Originally Posted by mishko27

Good architecture is good architecture, regardless of the height I guess - I just long for an iconic supertall, and a studio of said caliber could deliver one successfully.

As long as their design is adhered to, I am going to be happy. Zaha Hadid drew an absolutely fabulous project for Bratislava (I am originally from Slovakia), and the developer is fuuuucking it up. So short, but architecturally significant is fine with me

Noted. I think you all will be happy with where it's going.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by corey

If I were looking for a more affordable city in which to live I go one hour down I-25 and live in Colorado Springs. Other than that it would probably be Albuquerque or Tucson. I’ll never leave Denver again, though, because Denver has excellent cultural facilities that far surpass Seattle, Phoenix, Portland, Las Vegas, Sacramento, and rival Los Angeles/San Diego and the Bay Area. The reason I live in a large city is for the culture. I’ve lived in Seattle, Portland, Sacramento, San Francisco, and spent ALOT of time in Los Angeles, Phoenix, Las Vegas, San Diego, and Salt Lake City with my old job and visiting relatives. I’m leaving out Eastern cities (which I’ve literally been to all of them) because I’d only live in the Western US. I was a catastrophe adjuster and I’ve been to all 50 states, all over Canada, and many Caribbean islands for months on end at each location. Denver has excellent art museums, botanic garden, nature and science museum, performing arts center, etc., etc. I always wonder why Seattle really lags behind most US cities for cultural facilities considering it’s size and the fact that several of the world’s richest people live there. The snobby citizens of Denver really do support culture and the arts more than most cities.

Ah hah, I can see how you would know your way around. Fascinating stuff.

A specific shout-out goes to my favorite, my kids favorite: The Denver Zoo. And just as an aside how can you not love Denver's Blue Bear?

A different drummer perhaps but nothing can match Las Vegas for sheer entertainment like THIS.
How many happen to know the most interesting thing about Andrea Bocelli's life?